Starter Problems Ovation 3 w/IO-550-G

[neil]

I'm having trouble with my starter. I'm not quite sure what model starter it is, so I'm attaching a few pictures. When attempting to start (for the first time of the day) it feel like it's slipping... It feels like the gears aren't engaging and I can't get the prop to spin. If I let off the ignition and try again it fires right up. Flawlessly. Does anyone have any ideas on what could be causing this? Suggestions on what can be done to fix it?

Thanks!

Neil

[LANCECASPER]

Starter Adaptor maybe?

[Piloto]

It could be caused by a voltage weak battery. Try switching to the other battery. This occasionally occurs in cold weather.

 

José

[carusoam]

Any strange sounds go with that?

Like, do you hear the starter motor running?

Best regards,

-a-

[StevenL757]

Agree with LanceC. Also doesn't sound like a battery issue, given the starting behavior. I had this similar problem - literally - the week before I was ready to leave for TX to get my new engine and prop installed. Check the connector under that white boot. Mine was cracked nearly through at the "eyehole" and was making an intermittent contact. Until Brian and I found this, I also suspected starter adaptor.

Also....I strongly suggest not using any of the lightweight starters, like Skytech or the like. Although "approved", they do not work well with any flavor of the IO550 engines, and should be replaced with the (suggested) Energizer heavy duty starter. Spend the extra money on a high quality starter. TCM installs them with their new engines, and they are among the top couple of starters for our IO550 engines. If interested, I'll be at the hangar tomorrow morning and am happy to snap a picture of mine. Also...your lightweight starter will tear away much faster at your starter adaptor. Give a serious thought to replacing your starter, else, you'll be going through adapters like crazy. You'll add a small bit of weight, but not enough to make any perceivable difference. Let me know if you'd like more info.

[triple8s]

I had the same think happen to me, I probably went overboard but I bought a rebuilt adapter and a rebuilt starter, not a lightweight either. I had a discussion with a rebuilder in Kentucky (don't remember) his name but he said the gear drive starters don't free wheel easy enough to let the starter adapter release fully and cause them to fail. The company I got the rebuilt adapter from will not honor the warranty unless a standard direct drive starter is used, so I did as I was told and went with a rebuilt direct drive starter.

If you want to read a bit there are stories of engines trashed because of a starter adapter crapping out and sending metal chips into the engine, this is why I said screw it and bought the new starter and adapter. Also I was told oil additives can cause them to slip. My adapter came from Niagra and the starter came from a place they recommended.

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/232383-tcm-starter-adaptor-slipping.html

http://www.hartzellenginetech.com/service_pdf/SL_038_M-Drive_TechDiscuss.pdf

[Guest]

I'm having trouble with my starter. I'm not quite sure what model starter it is, so I'm attaching a few pictures. When attempting to start (for the first time of the day) it feel like it's slipping... It feels like the gears aren't engaging and I can't get the prop to spin. If I let off the ignition and try again it fires right up. Flawlessly. Does anyone have any ideas on what could be causing this? Suggestions on what can be done to fix it?

Thanks!

Neil

Neil,

In all likelihood your starter adapter is starting to slip. Failing to heed the sign can lead to adapter failure and metal contamination of your engine. Have it pulled and repaired or rebuilt ASAP. The biggest problem is the junk lightweight starter motors used on these engines. The bigger and heavier starters used on may Continental powered Cessna airframes rarely have this problem. A heavier starter motor will reduce useful load by ten pounds, the lightweight one will lighten your wallet by thousands of dollars.

Clarence

[GeorgePerry]

This started happening on my Eagle today.  +1 on the crappy light weight starters.  It never turned the engine as hard as the factory energizer.  My starter adaptor is less than a year old so I'm hoping for some sort of warranty 

[M20S Driver]

9 minutes ago, GeorgePerry said:

This started happening on my Eagle today.  +1 on the crappy light weight starters.  It never turned the engine as hard as the factory energizer.  My starter adaptor is less than a year old so I'm hoping for some sort of warranty 

I read that the synthetic blend Aero-shell 15/50 may cause or expedite this failure mode.  That's the oil that I have been using so far but no issues.  

What kind of oil do you use?

[StevenL757]

Exxon Elite 20W50.  All day.

[Godfather]

1 hour ago, M20S Driver said:

I read that the synthetic blend Aero-shell 15/50 may cause or expedite this failure mode.  That's the oil that I have been using so far but no issues.  

What kind of oil do you use?

I've been using AS 15/50 for the past 1200 hrs and my starter adapter lasted over 2k hrs so I don't feel it expedited the failure in my case.  

[philiplane]

That is the notorious Iskra starter that releases slowly and eats adapters. Get it off there today! Install a Skytec C24ST5, which is currently the best starter for large Continentals.

Engine oil has NOTHING to do with this failure mode. It's caused by the inability of the starter to release quickly. So the engine is running while the starter drive spring is still gripping the drive shaft. This wears the spring, and the expensive shaft. Change the starter, and have the adapter repaired for about $700. Or let it go longer, and it will cost $1500 after the shaft is worn below limits.

[GeorgePerry]

On 6/6/2016 at 9:38 PM, philiplane said:

That is the notorious Iskra starter that releases slowly and eats adapters. Get it off there today! Install a Skytec C24ST5, which is currently the best starter for large Continentals.

Engine oil has NOTHING to do with this failure mode. It's caused by the inability of the starter to release quickly. So the engine is running while the starter drive spring is still gripping the drive shaft. This wears the spring, and the expensive shaft. Change the starter, and have the adapter repaired for about $700. Or let it go longer, and it will cost $1500 after the shaft is worn below limits.

I have a C24ST4 and factory starter adaptor.  both new and installed 10 months ago.  I think others who've said stick with the energizer starter are probably right.  To many reports of adaptor problems after installing a skytec to an io-500.  

[GeorgePerry]

2 hours ago, M20S Driver said:

I read that the synthetic blend Aero-shell 15/50 may cause or expedite this failure mode.  That's the oil that I have been using so far but no issues.  

What kind of oil do you use?

Aeroshell synthetic blend...ARRGGGG.

[M20S Driver]

1 hour ago, GeorgePerry said:

Aeroshell synthetic blend...ARRGGGG.

I would try a different oil if it is not too late.  

Mike Busch thinks that the Paraffin in the oil can cause this.  I will be switching to Phillips 20-50 with the next oil change.

[rgpilot]

Additives in the oil such as Aeroshell plus or camguard are not recommended for engines with starter adapters.

[GeorgePerry]

7 hours ago, M20S Driver said:

I would try a different oil if it is not too late.  

Mike Busch thinks that the Paraffin in the oil can cause this.  I will be switching to Phillips 20-50 with the next oil change.

Do you have a link to the article where Busch talks about this or was this an in person conversation? 

[GeorgePerry]

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1149666747001

Good link to Engine management webinars....If you want to geek out to Mike.  He's a really smart IA!

[philiplane]

The Skytec C24 series is specifically made to release the drive spring when the engine starts. All other lightweight starters release slowly, especially the Iskra starter. It doesn't fully release for a minute or more. During that time the spring and shaft are grinding away at each other. Having a slippery oil would actually help cut the wear on these parts, if it were a flooded assembly. But it is only drip lubricated from the accessory drive oil returns.

The old energizer starter releases instantly like the lightweight C24ST5. 

If you have a C24ST5 and still have short adapter life, then the adapter was built with the wrong shaft clearance. There are parts to fix this issue available from Niagara Airparts. There is a mod to put the older style, wider spring into the newer housing. This eliminates all the wear issues. Of course any knowledgeable shop working on Continentals would know this, and should have made the recommendation to you.

[GeorgePerry]

Thx!  Its in the shop this morning and I've forwarded your note (name withheld) so when we go through the R/R process I get the right adapter.  

[triple8s]

Does the C24ST5 have some type of sprague clutch? I would've loved to been able to go with a lighter starter but didn't want to take any risk of ruining the engine. I read horror stories of what "could" happen when the spring doesn't let go. 

[GeorgePerry]

Well the verdict is in.  10 month old starter adaptor purchased new with a 6 month warranty....ARRRGGG.  $1350 for a rebuilt unit from Niagara Air Parts and the labor to R/R.  My old energizer starter is going back on.  10 pounds of useful load isn't worth the 2-3 AMU's each year to fix this problem repeatedly. 

The more research I do the more I hear the lightweight starters are no good for big bore continentals.  My C24ST5 is coming off and is for sale  if anyone wants it.

 

[Will.iam]

I know this thread is a few years old but I had one slip about 20 hours ago and I just changed from Phillips 20w-50 with camguard to AS 100W with camguard.  First start ground run was good and I checked for leaks but it was late and I did not go fly.  We then had a moonsoon of rain here in Texas and I did not get to fly it until 14 days later.  Wasn't too concerned about corrosion as I had fresh oil with less than 15 mins run time on it sitting in the engine.  But when I went to start it after that 2 week sit the adaptor slipped.  So second time with different oil. The engine started right up after that but I know my number of successful starts are numbered.  

questions:

I use a battery tender so my battery was fully charged so I'm sure it's the adapter/spring and hopefully getting the next size smaller starter adapter spring will fix this issue?

Anybody have a shop that they would recommend that is in the Texas area that is not months out on a waiting list? or is getting an adapter / spring repair able to get ahead of all the airplanes waiting for annuals, since it should be less than a day job? 

Also this could be done at a non MSC as it's a standard TSIO-360MB engine not mooney specific right?

I see this thread is about the 550 engines and how a big continental engine needs the heavy duty starter. Is the 360 engine a "big continental engine" as far as starters are concerned or can the Skytec C24ST5 starter suffice?

hoping for the $700 option and not letting it get to the $1500 issue.

Thanks in advance for all the knowledge MS shares,  I appreciate it.

Will

[LANCECASPER]

Not saying that this caused my starter adaptor to go out, but in 2015 on an Ovation after my first oil change with Camguard the starter started slipping. It may have been on its way out anyway, but if I owned a Continental I personally wouldn't use Camguard. I do use it on my Lycoming.

[Will.iam]

Well that's not a good sign.  The airplane had AS 15w-50 in it for years from the PO and that also has slick modifiers which is bad for the starter adapter to slip as well.  I guess a new / overhauled starter adapter is cheaper than getting corrosion from the engine sitting too long between starts.  It is hard to keep the interval down to below 2 weeks at a time and I live next to the hanger.  Been easier this first year as it's a new plane to me but I'm sure when work gets busy this summer with covid restrictions beginning to be lifted for travel and people itching to travel again, I'll have more than 2 weeks between flights so I need the camguard assurance.  Part of the reason I switched to AS 100W for the summer to help keep more stickyness (sp?) on the parts between flights and help keep oil pressure up when idling after landing.  I noticed on the Phillips 20w-50 right before oil change that my oil psi before shutdown was below 30 psi around 15 it seemed from the old analog gauge.  On my hour flight this past week the 100W oil kept the oil psi at 30 or bottom of the green arc after the taxi back before shutdown and the OAT was 80dF.  Maybe that was just tired oil of the phillips as I went to 29.5 hours on that oil and the AS 100W is fresh.  Will see in the next 25 hours how it holds up.