ADS-B

[DonMuncy]

I'm interested in the opinions of the group about ADS-B installation

It seems that if one waits until just before 2020 to install ADS-B, the avionics shops are going to be overwhelmed. So I think one has to balance that factor in with the thought that new (and perhaps cheaper) equipment might come out in the next year or three.

So I have started thinking about when and what to install.

First, although I never fly above 18,000 ft, since my K is capable of higher altitudes, whenever I get around to selling, a new owner might flinch if the plane wasn't legal to fly above FL 180. So it seems that getting the ES version might be smarter.

It seems to me that it is highly unlikely that one ADS-B "Out" box will be "better" than another, so buying one brand over another would be a waste, unless you consider that maintenance and/or repairs might be different between name brands vs others.

With our currently available "In" capabilities with Stratus and I-Pad, I'm questioning whether it makes much sense to get an "In" and "Out" unit, rather than just buying an "Out". This discounts the value of having weather and traffic displayed on the panel GPS. (In my case, GNS 430W.)

I would guess there is likely to be virtually no difference in installation costs, but I may well be wrong.

I haven't heard from you guys who went to Oshkosh about whether there are any new/cheap units available or soon to be.

I hope that Aviation Consumer is soon going to do a comprehensive report on all the available equipment, but I haven't seen one yet.

Has anyone done any analysis of how many choices we have and what the relative costs are.

Am I missing anything I should be looking at.

 

 

[1964-M20E]

Well I have not done any great analysis on this but since I have committed to buying an Avidyne IFD 440 (which hopefully will be out by the end of the year now that the 540s are shipping.)  I am going to have the Avidyne APX 340 installed at the same time to minimize the number of times the patient is opened up for surgery.  While I’m there I plan on having the FP5L fuel flow connected to the GPS as well then I’ll know my MPG and any other nice tricks that it can do for me.

[FoxMike]

Don,

I am thinking about equipment replacement just as you are.  Went to OSH earlier this week to look over all the new stuff.  I have an M model so I am in a similar quandary to the one you are in.  I hardly use class A airspace but hate to foreclose my use of that airspace after 2020.  I have a KLN 94 GPS which is OK, and an IPAD running Foreflight.  The cost to upgrade the GPS looks to be between 12K (new King) and 18K (Garmin).  Then I have to add a transponder 3 to 5K.  Those significant costs do not include the install.  As many have found out, the install cost can get out of hand with various problems that arise.  Right now you can get a Freeflight system that can be configured in several ways.  It can be UAT in and out (with WAAS Gps and Wi-fi) or less if you want to just add enough to get legal.  It can also output position data to a 1090ES transponder.  Complete system 4K.

Both Garmin and King have similar systems with somewhat higher prices. I think more UAT systems will be on the market shortly.  One big question is reliability and customer service.  I have no answers to those questions.  

 

If you choose Garmin you will be like an Apple user, stuck with only Garmin stuff as connectivity with other equipment is going to be difficult.  King may go this route in the future if they can get their act together.  I think Aspen is about to get into the UAT market by offering a rebranded Freeflight System which connects to the Aspen glass.  It looks to me as though the panel mounted WAAS Gps has only the advantage of LPV approaches at the cost of learning a fairly complex system and paying a significant cost.   Perhaps  some watchful waiting is the best thing to do at this point.  I think after the OSH experience that I will stand back and let things shake out for a while.  

[DonMuncy]

Thanks, I'm seeing about the same stuff as you. If I understand it, the new ADS-B can take its GPS feed off my 430. If I keep my Stratus/Foreflight for "In", the $4000 unit from FreeFlight plus installation ought to do it. It would seem that the installation of the antenna (I presume it needs a new one), would be the biggest part of an install.

[Marauder]

Thanks, I'm seeing about the same stuff as you. If I understand it, the new ADS-B can take its GPS feed off my 430. If I keep my Stratus/Foreflight for "In", the $4000 unit from FreeFlight plus installation ought to do it. It would seem that the installation of the antenna (I presume it needs a new one), would be the biggest part of an install.

Don -- as you mentioned earlier, if the plane can do FL180, you might want to consider going the ES route just not to impact the resale value at some point later on.

I'm sure it can be added later, but it would probably be viewed like the GNS 430/530 units that had not been upgraded to WAAS yet.

I think in the next year, the playing field will hopefully get more crowded and with better solutions for all.

[DonMuncy]

Waiting has some merit, but at some point, the rush to comply is going to cause a problem.  I suspect we have at least another year or so. I also would not put it past the FAA to decide at the last minute to put off the compliance date back by another year.

I don't remember the numbers I saw, but if you count the number of planes out there, we may have enough to keep all the avionic shops busy for a couple of years.

[Marauder]

Waiting has some merit, but at some point, the rush to comply is going to cause a problem. I suspect we have at least another year or so. I also would not put it past the FAA to decide at the last minute to put off the compliance date back by another year.

I don't remember the numbers I saw, but if you count the number of planes out there, we may have enough to keep all the avionic shops busy for a couple of years.

There will be a bottle neck at some point. I can't remember the exact percentage of "compliant" GA aircraft, but it is quite low. I'm sure there are a number out there who got burned rushing. Like the Mode S mandate back in the 90s. I almost got caught with that one.

I think waiting longer than a year people will start seeing scheduling problems. Also, might be a good time for some of us to start avionics shops...

[Bob_Belville]

I bought the GDL88 before the certification was final. So I've had the free weather and traffic for 18 months. I do not expect to still be flying in 2020 but I am benefiting from the added safety this technology long after I've forgotten what I spent. Moore's law applies to a lot of modern toys but if we wait for better and cheaper we never pull the trigger and never get the good while waiting for the ultimate solution.

 

 

 

 

[N601RX]

We can just tell them that we are busy and it is not possible to meet their deadline. We need 3 more years, I'm sure they will understand.

[aviatoreb]

We can just tell them that we are busy and it is not possible to meet their deadline. We need 3 more years, I'm sure they will understand.

 

Let's be serious - its their fault!  I am TRYING to comply right now - and their SLOW certification process has left us exactly one solution - the Garmins (GDL88 or GTX330ES - ok thats two).  But the King/Trig/ etc are complete and ready to go and thats what I want - but their certification is to slow for these TSO'ed devices to install in my airplane.  And the Aspen, and others coming down the pike - will they even be available by 2020?  You would think they would expedite their certification process if they were serious about 2020.  I take this conflicting message to mean they are not serious about 2020. Expect delays.

[N601RX]

If I already had a wass gps, then I would sell my working transponder on the used market and add a couple of thousand to it and upgrade.

[ArtVandelay]

Let's be serious - its their fault! I am TRYING to comply right now - and their SLOW certification process has left us exactly one solution - the Garmins (GDL88 or GTX330ES - ok thats two). But the King/Trig/ etc are complete and ready to go and thats what I want - but their certification is to slow for these TSO'ed devices to install in my airplane. And the Aspen, and others coming down the pike - will they even be available by 2020? You would think they would expedite their certification process if they were serious about 2020. I take this conflicting message to mean they are not serious about 2020. Expect delays.

Your blaming the FAA because king,aspen etc can't get their stuff together? Ummm, maybe the problem isn't the all the FAA's fault?

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[aviatoreb]

As I understand it the king/trig unit is built and tso 'Ed but not allowed to be installed.

[FoxMike]

Don,

You mentioned you had a 430.  It needs to be a 430W to use as a position source.  I think it costs 3K to upgrade if you do not have it.  If it is not a "W" keep what you have and go for the Freeflight UAT.  You can always add an ES transponder later.

 

Someone suggested that the FAA may set the compliance date back.  They might but I do not think so.  The motivation to implement NexGen has been to get the the cost of ATC down significantly.  The salary and pension costs are horrendous thus the FAA feels the best way to lower costs is to gain productivity by using computers.  The FAA has put a lot of development money into NexGen and needs to keep moving the ball foreword.  ADS-B is just one element and lots of productivity can be gained when the next phase starts in 2020.  I do not think we are finished buying equipment if we want to use the IFR system.  The feds will let you know about it after 2020.  

[DonMuncy]

I was shortcutting. Mine is a 430W.

[Hector]

I think there will be more affordable solutions in the next couple of years specially if you are mostly concerned with ADS-B out. I have another post here on a transponder with ES and built-in WAAS GPS from Appareo (the same guys who make the Stratus receiver) due out next year. I think there are a couple of other folks working on similar all-in-one box solutions. I also do not want to wait till the last minute, but I will wait 2 or 3 and see how things develop

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[Marauder]

Your blaming the FAA because king,aspen etc can't get their stuff together? Ummm, maybe the problem isn't the all the FAA's fault?

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The government could have forced a standardized protocol that all manufacturers needed to meet. In other words, a requirement that Brand A will integrate with Brand B. Without that requirement, they are protecting their turf through propriety firmware not allowing access to a competitor.

If the GDL-88 worked with the Aspen MFD, I would be flying with it today. Instead, I am waiting for a compatible solution.

[PTK]

What??!! You want the government to intervene and tamper with a perfectly functioning free market system?? Why don't you lay the blame where it belongs? On your beloved Aspen and King?! Urge them to stop whining and kick them in the ass to produce what you want or you'll go elsewhere! They're the ones responsible for you having to wait for "a compatible solution" not the gov'nt or anyone else!

I don't want my government "forcing" or interfering with anyone! I want a free market. I don't want the gov'nt protecting a lame manufacturer by penalizing a successful one!

The manufacturers who demonstrate success should "protect their turf with proprietary firmware" and not allow competitors! Absolutely they should! It's called free enterprise! This is America! It's called success through hard work. Be it an individual or a company.

Let's not blame the FAA or the government!

[Guest]

If you take the number of aircraft requiring upgrade and the number of shops able to do the work and the number of available work days it will never get done by the 2020 dead line, expect an extension to the deadline.

Clarence

[yvesg]

The 406 MHz ELT had a compliance deadline in Canada a few years back. As the deadline approached, the government realized the GA airplanes would not be compliant when it will arrive. The law approuval got stopped somewhere (I still think it is in limbo) and we have not heard since.

Yves

[ArtVandelay]

The 406 MHz ELT had a compliance deadline in Canada a few years back. As the deadline approached, the government realized the GA airplanes would not be compliant when it will arrive. The law approuval got stopped somewhere (I still think it is in limbo) and we have not heard since.

 

The difference is whether you have a 406 ELT doesn't affect anybody else.

 

ADSB is suppose to provide safety for all. All you need is 1 accident or close call between 2 planes (especially a GA airplane) and people will be screaming for improved safety.

In the states when we were converting to digital TV we had delays, but they were driven by broadcasters (big companies with big $$). Likewise, unless the major carriers push for delay, it won't happen, I think it will be the opposite. Since they fly into mostly B & C airspaces, and fly above 18000, they will be pushing for compliance, and if there was an accident, they might try to bring in the date.

[Marauder]

What??!! You want the government to intervene and tamper with a perfectly functioning free market system?? Why don't you lay the blame where it belongs? On your beloved Aspen and King?! Urge them to stop whining and kick them in the ass to produce what you want or you'll go elsewhere! They're the ones responsible for you having to wait for "a compatible solution" not the gov'nt or anyone else!

I don't want my government "forcing" or interfering with anyone! I want a free market. I don't want the gov'nt protecting a lame manufacturer by penalizing a successful one!

The manufacturers who demonstrate success should "protect their turf with proprietary firmware" and not allow competitors! Absolutely they should! It's called free enterprise! This is America! It's called success through hard work. Be it an individual or a company.

Let's not blame the FAA or the government!

The certified boxes are already regulated Peter. That is why you pay dearly for the privilege of flying behind a "certified" box. Ever check the prices between "certified" and "uncertified" boxes?

What I am talking about is a standardized protocol for sharing data under the same regulations these certified boxes are produced. Not the lock-out crap that is going on today. Sounds like you would be happier if you had to pay whatever HP, Dell, Acer or Apple asked for a SD drive because it would only work on "their" machine.

[ArtVandelay]

What I am talking about is a standardized protocol for sharing data under the same regulations these certified boxes are produced. Not the lock-out crap that is going on today. Sounds like you would be happier if you had to pay whatever HP, Dell, Acer or Apple asked for a SD drive because it would only work on "their" machine.

Well, Apple use to have their own protocols, only competition from IBM PC made them change, sort of, they still tightly control what runs on their mobile devices, they are not exactly an "open" system.

I think they can fix this real easy with 1 change: all certified equipment must publish their external interfaces/protocols. That way we can still have innovation, but other equipment makers don't have to do reverse engineering 

[Bob - S50]

Don,

 

Depending on my partners, I'm thinking we will wait until about 2017 to upgrade unless the current transponder gives up the ghost before then.

 

My current choice is:

 

Trig TT22.  Small remote unit.  The control head fits in a very small space which gives lots of options for placement.  It costs about $2600, is very light weight, and includes an altitude encoder built in.  That means I can free up panel space and save weight at the same time (TT22 in, KT76A and encoder out).

 

For ADS-B in, I've already bought the Garmin GDL 39-3D.  Once we install the 'out' portion I'll have NOTAMS, WX, and traffic on my tablet (Garmin Pilot) and a backup (although not certified) attitude indicator.

 

Bob

[midlifeflyer]

The certified boxes are already regulated Peter. That is why you pay dearly for the privilege of flying behind a "certified" box. Ever check the prices between "certified" and "uncertified" boxes?

What I am talking about is a standardized protocol for sharing data under the same regulations these certified boxes are produced. Not the lock-out crap that is going on today. Sounds like you would be happier if you had to pay whatever HP, Dell, Acer or Apple asked for a SD drive because it would only work on "their" machine.

The problem with regulated "standardization" protocols is that they tend to inhibit innovation at least in terms of slowing it down while the government goes through the process of approving modifications or new protocols. 

 

I'm not anti-government by any stretch of the imagination, but innovation is not something it does particularly well. Government supports it best by leaving regulatory standards loose enough for it to take place.

 

I'm not sure your "HP, Dell, Acer" analogy is particularly apt (with Apple, you do have pretty much the SD drive that would only work on their machine). The demand and the ability to run applications (another thing Apple chooses to control) pretty much takes care of that issue. OTOH, what if before Apple gave us iOS 8, it had to run it by some bureaucrats or was required to make it talk with Android?