PMcClure Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Recent events got me thinking about my chances of surviving a GA crash. Sorry for the morbid topic but maybe we can learn and share some knowledge and save one of us. I consider myself a good pilot flying a good plane. I rule out stupid stuff like running out of fuel or flying into a tornado. I stay away from the edges and stay current. I maintain my aircraft well and pay attention to what my engine is telling me. My biggest concern is a take off power failure. I have a departure plan for both directions at my home field. And I recite verbally (or internally if with pax) before taking the active runway that if the engine fails I will push the nose down and fly the A/C to the ground. All that said - how do you maximize your survivability rate if something does happen? I found this link which is useful in discussion. Warning: It contains several images of crashes. It could be considered encouraging or discouraging. http://www.omao.noaa.gov/aviationsafety/pdf/(Brickhouse)The%20Science%20of%20Survivability-1.pdf We have steel cages and I have three point restraints. I should be able to withstand a 62knot controlled emergency landing. I think I even have a good chance of a 62 knot impact with a tree, God willing. But fire - that is the one that really gets me. How do we minimize our risk of post crash fire? The emergency procedures in my PH say to cut the master electrical switch, pull the mixture and turn fuel selector to off. Is this all we can do, does it help, any other suggestions? Gear up or down? If down, it could come loose and enter the cabin on a hard impact. I opt for gear up. Another thing I tell myself over and over is that the financial risk is the insurance company's in an emergency. If something happens, the only thing that matters is my safety and the safety of pax and people on the ground. I hope that thought remains only that and is not tested. Any other practices we should consider to maximize our chances if the worst happens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 It seems like power loss in any phase of flight except takeoff is highly survivable. They key is to have a plan. Make the critical decisions before you encounter the situation. Willingness to sacrifice the aircraft seems like a good key to survival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotarPilot Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I think about this issue offen as well. I think having a plan is very importan and a huge part of survival. I fly over a heavy populated urban area between my home airport and work (on days I fly to work). A large portion of my 25nm route takes me along the Los Angeles river which is lined with concrete and has a lot of straight sections which make for a good makeshift runway, in a pinch. My biggest concern would be powerlines that criss cross the river over several areas. I also fly past Dodger stadium which has huge open parking lots that could probably be used as runways as long as there aren't any games going on. (But if there was a game there'd be a TFR so I wouldn't be flying near it anyways.) Third choice would be a freeway. Probably the least attractive option but still an option. That's my survival plan. I would like to here what other people have for theirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Gear down has some benefits in energy adsorption... Gear up when landing in water... They invented airbags for the long body crowd...helps keep you wake for the next phase... Window breaking hammers to help you exit the side opposite the fire... Fire extinguisher you can throw at the fire on your way out the other side... Three other options... Discussion (what you are doing here) Maintenance Training and experience/currency (most critical) Things that come to mind, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 The three most important actions you can take in an emergency are: 1) fly the plane 2) fly the plane and 3) fly the plane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm so mad the FAA won't let us have the nice airbag seatbelts - in the name of safety of a certification process that in this case is failing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMcClure Posted July 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I have thought about the fire extinguisher. It is not very accessible from the front and I think the time to get to it would be better suited to getting out. My thoughts on pre emergency landing would be: 1) master 2) mixture 3) fuel selector off 4) open door (prior to landing). Is there good data on the airbags? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I have thought about the fire extinguisher. It is not very accessible from the front and I think the time to get to it would be better suited to getting out. My thoughts on pre emergency landing would be: 1) master 2) mixture 3) fuel selector off 4) open door (prior to landing). Is there good data on the airbags? When my landing gear failed and I had to do a belly landing the FAA safety inspector seemed particularly impressed that I had remembered to unlatch the door prior to landing. I guess this must be an often overlooked item. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 In my Eagle I have a second little fire extinguisher in the kick board pocket by the passenger leg. I always felt like the one under the back seat would not be very accesible in a forced landing. I also carry a knife that has a seltbelt cutter and a spike to break windows in my flight bag. I'm little on the paranoid side because I also carry a smoke hood and inflatable life vest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisk Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 In my Eagle I have a second little fire extinguisher in the kick board pocket by the passenger leg. I always felt like the one under the back seat would not be very accesible in a forced landing. I also carry a knife that has a seltbelt cutter and a spike to break windows in my flight bag. I'm little on the paranoid side because I also carry a smoke hood and inflatable life vest. I'm not sure if the spike to break the window is of any use. The windows are plastic, and I assume hard to shatter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMcClure Posted July 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Chris, I wonder the same thing. And even at 185lb, I am not sure I could get through the window easily. Better to kick out the window or carry a hatchet ? go for the door regardless? Seat belt cutter sounds like a good addition to the cockpit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm not sure if the spike to break the window is of any use. The windows are plastic, and I assume hard to shatter? I know, I think/thought the same thing but I read an article the it helps score the plexi surface to help break it and it's on the knife I carry anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyDave Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I always brief passengers that I'll tell them to crack the door open short final in an emergency landing. Another aspect I've thought about a lot is gear up vs. gear down. In a situation where you probably need to stop in the shortest distance possible, landing gear up would probably help. I do like the idea of a safety belt cutter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N33GG Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Yes, it is the power fail on take off that gets more people dead. And yet, everybody wants to concentrate on better landings. It is hard to get students, at any level, to take take offs seriously. This is one phase of flight I am on highest alert, and it has saved me one time in a big twin that blew a turbocharger right at V2 or rotate speed. Also, I don't know if it still standard, but Lear Jets used to come equipped with a small axe that looked pretty much like any camp axe in every cockpit. I thought that was pretty cool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I carry one of these on my lanyard. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 I have almost the same thing Maurauder in the pilot pouch at my left hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Maybe the lanyard is eve better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 The thing about a power out on take off is that by far the likilihood is it will occur (knock on wood if it occurs ) it will occur at your home Airport since that is where most people probably do half their take offs. So KNOW the options to the smallest details of your home turf - altitudes when to go straight / or turn slightly left or slightly right to find friendly fields. After that try to take a moment to notice the lay of the land when landing at an away airport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 After that try to take a moment to notice the lay of the land when landing at an away airport. You can use satellite view (google maps, etc) to check out the area around an away airport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 True that. Good second chance look which I admit not doing - But hard to beat a simple eyeful view upon landing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottfromiowa Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Not getting the safety belt cutter thing...So when you are down you don't feel you will remember how to unlatch your belt or your co-pilots belt?...and you think it will be easier/quicker to find your handy belt cutter, get it on belt, cut belt and then egress? I do not agree. I am just going to think about landing the plane in the best spot and getting my crew and I the hell out the already popped door. If there is fire...I am NOT going to hunt up and use an extinguisher...I am getting the F&^% out of the plane as fast as I can. Not meaning to be critical...Any and all prior planning and equipment is O.K. by me, but just charting a different course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMcClure Posted August 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 I think the concern is if the buckle doesn't release after 10G of force. Refining the discussion - what to do on a take off engine failure after selecting a best landing sight and reaching target airspeed? Master/Mixture/Fuel Off/Door open. Anything else to do? Do these steps really help reduce the chance of a post crash fire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Recently moved back to CT and fly out of an airport with lots of trees surrounding. I don't like to hear about all of the engine outs on takeoff. I have taken to Vx or Vy take offs, vs cruise climb that I got used to in Georgia. I have about a 1 minute window with no options (maybe one if the wind is right), and then a couple of minutes with very limited options. Large farms up here are a thing of the past. Not comforting for single engine flight. I have been noticing that many of the Mooney accidents are survivable except for fire. My worst fear. Our tanks are right by our primary exit. I wonder if there is any data on bladders vs wet wing and fire after an accident. I would think that bladders would have at least a little better chance of retaining fuel while you get out. I wonder if there is any data on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Not getting the safety belt cutter thing...So when you are down you don't feel you will remember how to unlatch your belt or your co-pilots belt?...and you think it will be easier/quicker to find your handy belt cutter, get it on belt, cut belt and then egress? I do not agree. I am just going to think about landing the plane in the best spot and getting my crew and I the hell out the already popped door. If there is fire...I am NOT going to hunt up and use an extinguisher...I am getting the F&^% out of the plane as fast as I can. Not meaning to be critical...Any and all prior planning and equipment is O.K. by me, but just charting a different course. Scott -- I started carrying one of the belt cutters when I was involved in a T bone car accident that absolutely destroyed the release mechanism. I was stuck in the car for 10 minutes until a farmer came by with his trusty Leatherman. Might not make a difference in a plane crash, but around my neck it goes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 The problem is you can do everything right , and still come up short.....The cage is not really more effective than a standard monocoque , I have seen many planes where the passengers died from the impact , and the passenger compartment survived intact , The biggest cause of death from otherwise survivable accidents is head trauma from the head hitting the dash ...If you fly without a three point , you are nuts.....They are cheap and easy to install on the Mooneys , and will save your life.....I lost a friend who cartwheeled a Baron on landing......He died from head trauma ...with shoulder harnesses he would have walked away......Every plane I have owned in the last 10 years has had them , or I installed them.....As stated earlier , FLY THE PLANE..... Steeper approaches to a point on the runway past the numbers when able will increase survivability.......and when you practice best glide pull the mixture that will be your true descent rate......A lot steeper than flight Idle.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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