Incremental ownership cost for an Ovation vs 201

[Don Scorese]

Does anyone have any insight on what the incremental cost of ownership/maintenance for an Ovation as compared to a J model. I understand the obvious cost such as fuel burn and insurance due to higher hull value. My question is mainly about maintenance. It seems many systems are the same such as gear and should be similiar. There is an extra battery and alternator, O2 system, and maybe A/C and de-ice. Not to mention the extra 2 cylinders. I used to own a J model and have a handle on the cost to own that, but am considering upgrading to an Ovation when I get back into plane ownership again. Of course there is the Lycoming vs Continental debate, which I am trying to avoid for this thread. Any information on cost of annual and other cost would be greatly appreciated.

[PMcClure]

If it helps, my last two annuals were less than $2500 on the O2. The maintenance cost on the airframe is not much different on the Ovation than the F model I had. (almost nothing).  Newer planes have newer avionics which are more expensive to keep up and the 2 extra cylinders and higher replacement cost of the 550g have to be factored in but the TBO is also 2000 hours.  

[KSMooniac]

Well, the IO-550 cylinders cost much less than the IO-360 angle valve cylinders, so 6 vs. 4 becomes a wash IMO.  

 

The biggest concerns IMO will the keeping the panel going or upgrading, depending on what vintage you're considering.  The older Ovation engine instruments are EXPENSIVE (do some searches here) so at some point it becomes more economical to put in a modern engine monitor and remove the old stuff.  The Ovation autopilots might be "more" than what your J had...maybe.  The King stuff is expensive when it needs attention, including the HSI and Flight Director.  Again, upgrading to an Aspen or G500 can make better sense than repairing King gyros.  

 

Otherwise, pretty similar.  A 3 blade prop will cost more to overhaul than a 2 blade.  Ovations will go through tire, brakes and landing gear donuts at a faster rate due to extra weight.  Those concerns probably don't add a lot to ownership cost...biggest as you mentioned will be insurance and fuel burn.

 

Welcome to Mooneyspace, BTW.

[Flymu2]

Besides the fuel burn, purchase price, and insurance cost for increased hull value, probably not a lot of difference. Probably not even much difference in fuel burn on mpg basis, rather than gph. Cost to overhaul engine is almost the same.

[jetdriven]

We maintain a 2002 O2 at our shop. Most of the stuff has been covered. This particular O2 has the Moritz gauges which are always requiring money, the standby electric vacuum which costs a grand to repair, KFC-225 A/P and F/D,and inboard oxygen which requires expensive fillups and an occasional recert. The lightweight bottle also has to be retired after so many years. A wag but I'd guess after a year of flying, the O2 costs between a third and half again as much as a J, between interest on debt, gas, and more frequent replacement of certain things such as donuts. If you borrow 250K or more, the payments probably make it twice as expensive as a 100K M20J.

Our plane is 11K a year if it doesn't move or break anything, and 70$/hr for gas and dry rate. And another 3-5K a year for maintenance and upgrades.

[Cris]

Having owned several J' s and my current Screamin' Eagle I would say the cost to own the Ovation look-a-like is certainly no more and probably less than the J. Part of the reason is that the Eagle has simpler and latter model systems than a well equipped J like the autopilot. Also the Eagle in my case is a latter model airframe with lower TT so things seem not to wear out and I like the fact that it has benefited from the j upgrades over the years. I guess the answer is to buy the newest and best airframe you can given ones budget.

[Don Scorese]

Thank you for the input, and for the welcome wishes. I am trying to compare a late J model, 1990 & newer to an Ovation 1. It seems the acquisition cost of the J is $120,000 to $150,000, and some older Ovation 1s could be had for $150,000 to $200,000. That is about the limit of my price range, so O3s are out and most of the O2s as well. As for avionics, I am looking for simple, by todays standards, which means 6 pack with 430 or more, engine monitoring, traffic etc. no need for A/C or de-ice, but I thought all OvTions had O2.

$2,500 on the last two annuals for PMcClure is great information. That is what it cost for the J model, in a good year. There will always be the bad year every so often with airplane ownership.

kSMooniac said the older Ovation instruments are more expensive to maintain. I assume this means specifically what is in my price range....O1 with 6 pack? The J I had was similiar, 6 pack, 430, 330, 340 with century 2000 a/p. sure there were some non scheduled items, but for the most part it wasn't often enough to be considered significant over a few year period. Anything else I am missing?

Jetdriven mentioned the Moritz guages, anyone else find this a persistent problem? How much and how often are the obvious questions. The guages in the J are not very good, which is why a jpi is well worth the money. And I find the wing guages to be more reliable then the original fuel guages. I use them to confim fuel indicated on jpi.

Having owned only planes with Lycoming engines I am of course partial to Lycoming (doesn't everyone fear change and the unknown). My A&P said with the Continental you will need a top OH by say 1200-1400 hours, but after that you should be able to go to say 2500 hours before you need the engine done. His opinion was the same as FlyMu and KSMooniac.....it should be similiar.

And finally....Cris...the screamin eagle seemed to be the worst of both planes, but I am admittedly not up on the eagle. The eagle has the extra cylinders but not the hsp, so it seemed to cost more but not do much more. But I haven't thought of the screamin eagle upgrade. Does that Upgrade have basically the same charactersiks as an Ovation?

Thanks again for all the insight.

[AndyFromCB]

You could buy a Bravo. Best buy in airplane world IMHO. There is something addictive about a climb rate that never quits.

[KSMooniac]

The Screamin' Eagle is a bargain in the market IMO... cheaper to buy, lighter weight (usually) than a comparable Ovation and equal performance (or more if the Ovation doesn't have the 310 hp upgrade).  Plus, the panel is simpler so you're not saddled with a bunch of last-gen avionics...which makes them perfect candidates for an Aspen or G500 upgrade.  The downside (or the positive IMO) is that the Eagles typically came with the simpler or less-capable STEC 30 instead of a KAP or KFC-something autopilot.  

 

Continental cylinders have had issues in the past with poor valve installation, which leads to the need for a top overhaul around 800-900 hours.  It is a crap-shoot whether or not you get an engine that has such an issue.  However, if you have a good overhaul done by someone OTHER than Continental, then there the chances are very good that the cylinders will make a full TBO run if the engine is run properly. When evaluating planes, I'd place a MUCH higher value on an engine overhauled by a good shop vs. the factory.  Beechtalk.com is full of Continental engine info, and if you read there eventually you'll learn that many savvy shops take brand-new Continental cylinders and re-do the valves before installing them on one of their engines.  

 

The Moritz gauges are mostly orphaned and/or prohibitively expensive.  A recent thread here concerned a sending unit for one of them (I forget which) and the reply from Mooney was ~$2500 and 90 days or some crap like that.  I would go into Ovation ownership knowing those gauges are not long for this world and have a plan and budget to remove and replace with a JPI 900 or 930, or EI MVP-50 or Auracle primary engine monitor.  

 

(My original post said ENGINE instruments, not the usual 6-pack, except the King gyros for the HSI and Flight Director, which many J's have.)

[Cris]

And finally....Cris...the screamin eagle seemed to be the worst of both planes, but I am admittedly not up on the eagle. The eagle has the extra cylinders but not the hsp, so it seemed to cost more but not do much more. But I haven't thought of the screamin eagle upgrade. Does that Upgrade have basically the same charactersiks as an Ovation?

The Screamin Eagle has the same 310 hp STC as the Ovation 3 but better performance since it is generally lighter. Search the thread for info. In terms of cruise speed even the base 244 hp model will beat a J. In terma of the Moritz guages I had mine repaired when I purchased it three years ago and no problems since. Essentially the Volt/ Amp switch did not work but the factory repaired it including new lights for that cluster guage for under $400. As KSMoniac pointed out the Eagle is a great value and is the best of both AC as opposed to the worst assuming you find one with the 310 HP upgrade. Some early conversions had a 280 hp upgrade also.

[Don Scorese]

Very good information. So it seems that my original thinking that upgrading to 6 cylinders from 4 may not be a significant increase in maintenance cost. I am on the East Coast and don't need a turbo, so I will continue to look into the Ovation, and now the Screamin Eagle. Worse case for me is to buy a J model, which is not so bad at all.

Thanks to everyone.

[KSMooniac]

There is really no wrong answer.     Personally I would like a Screamin' Eagle, but there are few in the market since the Eagle didn't sell well, and not all of them have been upgraded yet.  I'd rather have lighter empty weight and less "old" stuff on the panel so I can update it to my specs without paying extra for stuff that I don't want... An STEC 30 is decent enough (I have one) and there is an upgrade path out there, but not quite ready yet with an Aspen controlling a DFC90 that uses STEC servos.  That would thoroughly modernize the airframe and put it on par with the latest G1000 and GFC700 combos, at far less cost.  The typical Ovation King A/P is more capable today, though, but at a higher support cost.  Pick your poison.

[Cruiser]

From the FAA registry it appears that there were only 65 Eagles produced in 1999 and 2000 (30-0001 thru 30-0065) of which only 59 remain.

 

Finding one for sale is remote, if it has been upgraded at all, it would be worth more than the equivalent Ovations are.

[jetdriven]

And finally....Cris...the screamin eagle seemed to be the worst of both planes, but I am admittedly not up on the eagle. The eagle has the extra cylinders but not the hsp, so it seemed to cost more but not do much more. But I haven't thought of the screamin eagle upgrade. Does that Upgrade have basically the same charactersiks as an Ovation?

The Screamin Eagle has the same 310 hp STC as the Ovation 3 but better performance since it is generally lighter. Search the thread for info. In terms of cruise speed even the base 244 hp model will beat a J. In terma of the Moritz guages I had mine repaired when I purchased it three years ago and no problems since. Essentially the Volt/ Amp switch did not work but the factory repaired it including new lights for that cluster guage for under $400. As KSMoniac pointed out the Eagle is a great value and is the best of both AC as opposed to the worst assuming you find one with the 310 HP upgrade. Some early conversions had a 280 hp upgrade also.

Moritz went bust and the factory doesn't support those gauges anymore. The rights to the units were bought by a company in Florida and last I heard was 1500$ to repair them. The latest with our O2 was the oil temp gauge gong to zero on the analog and the digital blanking out. It could be a sender, but either method is going to be expensive to repair.

Also, those things go 165 or 170 knots from what I've learned, talking to the owner, and he runs ROP 14-15 GPH. So in his case, it's a 12 NMPG airplane with lower useful load than a J. Get it high and don't take much, I'm sure it's better than that.

[Piloto]

The most significant differences between the J and the R are the baggage area and the engine. I love the baggage area in the Ovation, which is about twice of that in the M20J. In fact is the biggest one I have seen on a single. The 200hp engine on the M20J gives you an anemic climb above 10,000ft when compared with the 300hp in the Ovation which gives 1,000 fpm. The added expenses are mostly related to the fuel burn and engine maintenance. If you can afford it go for the R.

 

José

[AndyFromCB]

Moritz went bust and the factory doesn't support those gauges anymore. The rights to the units were bought by a company in Florida and last I heard was 1500$ to repair them. The latest with our O2 was the oil temp gauge gong to zero on the analog and the digital blanking out. It could be a sender, but either method is going to be expensive to repair.

Also, those things go 165 or 170 knots from what I've learned, talking to the owner, and he runs ROP 14-15 GPH. So in his case, it's a 12 NMPG airplane with lower useful load than a J. Get it high and don't take much, I'm sure it's better than that.

 

It depends very much on the propeller. With the Hartzell 3 blade, they are very much a 185knot aircraft. As to the useful load, I've seen Eagles (I was going to buy one but it had damage history) with TKS and still pushing 1100lb. 

 

The worst Ovations are the ones with the 3 blades from McCauley. They are pretty slow.

[Av8]

I've been doing the same analysis - though breaking J models In to 2 groups - older vs mse vs ovation and having a hard time justifying higher acquisition cost for a newer mse or ovation - my mission is SE US 150-600 NM flights so the speed delta doesn't really change the day a whole lot.

when a late 70/early 80s J low time engine good AP can be had for 80k ish, vs 125-175 for newer J or O, it's hard to pay 50-100k more for 20kts ??

That's a lot of maintenance /upgrades or better yet - avgas.

What am I missing ?

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[Av8]

Thx- I'm actually looking at 2 78s as acquisition targets, and an 83. Remembering that 12 yrs or hours = tbo. I'm looking for low time/age engine and king 200 AP. Everything else can be upgraded? Any input suggestions from those who have been down this road greatly appreciated!

[Hank]

Thx- I'm actually looking at 2 78s as acquisition targets, and an 83. Remembering that 12 yrs or hours = tbo. I'm looking for low time/age engine and king 200 AP. Everything else can be upgraded? Any input suggestions from those who have been down this road greatly appreciated!

 

Remember, also, that the bold line above is only required for commercial operations. Many people overhaul based on hours, but very, very few do so based on time. My own engine is pushing or past the time limit, but only 1/3 through the hours. I'll have to dig through the logs and see when the previous owner did the OH to know for sure, but I'm just not that motivated or concerned.

 

When shopping, you want good condition and flown regularly; but everything is negotiable in a sale. Don't expect someone like me to price my plane as if the engine is runout based on nothing but calendar time.

[larryb]

In the early 80's there are some features that may be nice. Mine has a removable rear seat for example. Almost always I fly it as a 2 seat with a huge baggage area. I also didn't like the quadrant, so I didn't look at the first year J model. I am happy that I wound up with an 84.

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[carusoam]

Go O...

Bigger, faster, and probably newer and more capable than the C or J that it replaced...

More Mooney for the discerning pilot.

Tie down, hanger, insurance and annuals have been the same...

If your finance minister sits in the back, she'll approve the expense.

My C cost about $35k. The O closer to $200k. It takes some dedication to aviation for that chunk of change.

The operation costs are a minimal difference compared to the interest payment...

Does that make any sense?

How aviation oriented are you?

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Gunter,

Are you in Europe where the age/TBO issue is more meaningful?

Best regards,

-a-

[Cris]

The 12 years to TBO really grates on me as it is such an obvious attempt by the engine mfg's to drum up business. There does not appear to be any metrics indicating safety issues nor has the FAA issued AD's on engines with more that 12 years of service. If one has a seal problem or any problem you will repair it before you fly. This is not an issue with commercial flights as they fly so much that they never hit the 12 year mark. Like Hank says you are unlikely to find someone pricing an aircraft as if it is runout based on time alone. Nor might I add is that reflected in the A/C blue book on pricing.

[KSMooniac]

In the early 80's there are some features that may be nice. Mine has a removable rear seat for example. Almost always I fly it as a 2 seat with a huge baggage area. I also didn't like the quadrant, so I didn't look at the first year J model. I am happy that I wound up with an 84.

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These are two very nice changes from the earliest J (or K) models.  I loved everything about my '77 except the bench seat and the throttle quadrant, but I couldn't blow my budget any further to get a newer J and I bought it anyway.  Fast forward 7 years and I'm now in the process of changing the throttle quadrant to the push-pull controls, and let me tell you this is a HUGE task!  I haven't been logging time, but I'm surely more than 40 hours invested in this conversion, which involves transplanting the entire nose wheel well structure, flap & trim indicator cables, ventilation system, etc. as well as locating and drilling new holes to accommodate those changes.  It is a lot of work, and only possible because I had a complete salvage plane to scavenge parts and because I really, really wanted this improvement.  Paying someone to do this would make zero sense...

 

Next up will be custom rebuilding the '81 model seats and transplanting the rear bucket seat mechanisms into my plane and deleting the bench seat... but first I need to get back flying again!

[Hank]

I really like the throttle quadrant! But I never dreamed it would be that complicated to change out, either. Hope it works well for you, Scott.