AmSafe airbags for C,E,F,G,J,early K Mooney

[richardheitzman]

Good Morning, 

 

AmSafe is once again considering developing seatbelt airbag systems for the early model Mooney aircraft. With that being said the last time I came on to the forums with this information we received very lukewarm support and interest. 

 

It is very hard for me to justify internally with my management the cost of the program when only a couple dozen or so owners step up and say they are interested. 

 

So consider this a grass roots initiative. 

 

This process is simple. Talk to your buddies, talk to your friends, talk with everyone you know who owns a Mooney and might be interested in Airbags on their aircraft similar to the ones installed on the current production Mooney aircraft. 

 

Come on to this forum and basically say "yes I am interested". 

 

I will keep this going for a couple weeks and tally up the response. I am also going to send this same message over to the Mooney Ambassador Facebook page.

 

Pricing is still up in the air, you can expect anywhere from $3,000 to $4,000 for the kit which includes everything for the pilot and co pilot seats.

 

ordering and installation can only be done at a authorized service center. No exceptions to that rule. No new service centers will be brought into the network to complete an order for a customer. Labor to install is usually 8 hours.

 

I will check on this forum once a day and answer questions. Be nice and please do not flood my email with questions, ask them here and I will answer, that way everyone has the same information.

 

So thank you for your interest and I look forward to seeing everyone out at EAA Oshkosh.

 

With Kindest Regards,

 

Richard 

[Mooneymite]

I hate to throw a wet blanket on a worthwhile project, but if you're talking about older Mooneys worth less than $50-60K, $4K + 8 hours of labor does not compute. I could never expect to re-coup much of that investment.

While I consider my life worth more, Amsafe seatbelts are not the only risk mitigators in my aircraft. If everyone who installed these survived every accident, it would be a slam dunk, but that is not the case. These belts make the critical difference only in a narrow type of impact.

At $2000, with the option to do the install myself, I might consider them....but everyone "has a price".

In any case, good luck with the project.

[mike_elliott]

Hi Richard, how have you been? I have to concur with Mooneymite, we all have our price and his range makes it more intriguing for us older Mooney guys. We are faced with upcoming Ads B compliance, along with the every rising cost of just participating in GA ownership.

Yes I would love to have them, but they would be subordinated to other items I will be required/need to have.

[Sabremech]

I might be interested in them except for the fact that they have to be installed at an authorized service center. I'm an A&P and if I can't install them in my own airplane, then I'm probably not that interested.

 

 David

[Marauder]

Richard -- I think all of us are interested in increasing safety. It comes down to a cost versus benefit discussion. If cost was no issue, I would be flying a new FIKI jet. I think the price point becomes an issue when it starts going over $2k installed. Yeah, I know. You guys are sticking a lot more expensive stuff in your panels. The difference is that I use all the stuff I put into the panel all the time to improve safety versus something I hope I never need to use.

How many commitments do you need to get the price point in the $2k range?

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[Marauder]

I hate to throw a wet blanket on a worthwhile project, but if you're talking about older Mooneys worth less than $50-60K, $4K + 8 hours of labor does not compute. I could never expect to re-coup much of that investment.

While I consider my life worth more, Amsafe seatbelts are not the only risk mitigators in my aircraft. If everyone who installed these survived every accident, it would be a slam dunk, but that is not the case. These belts make the critical difference only in a narrow type of impact.

At $2000, with the option to do the install myself, I might consider them....but everyone "has a price".

In any case, good luck with the project.

Wow! I was typing my response when you posted your's. You came up to roughly the same price point!

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[Mooneymite]

Wow! I was typing my response when you posted your's. You came up to roughly the same price point!

 

 

It just proves that cheap bastards all think the same....

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

We had the AmSafe belts installed in 2013 in another plane I fly.  The total cost was about $5500 including labor.  We had them installed during annual inspection when much of disassembly was done anyway so that may have reduced labor expense.   The annual inspection of the belts and associated sensor box is inexpensive but not zero.  I am told that annual test can only be done by a dealer with who has or rents the AmSafe test box to run the tests of the system. 

 

We are happy we installed them and have no complaints.  The belts fit in perfectly and the airbag pouch on the belt is unobtrusive in use.   I hope never to make use of them, of course.

 

 

 

 

[orionflt]

Richard,

I have to echo the adobe statements and add that one of the other reasons I am not interested is the poor customer support. I have tried calling and e-mailing Amsafe looking for alternatives for a set of belts that did not fit quite right in my mooney, I even left your message on mooney space. And got no response. It was a simple request, what was the Amsafe part number. For the Mooney belts and could I have the one I had re webbed to that part number since I had all the hardware. Thankfully one of your competitors was nice enough to explain what had to be done and helped me find a soulution.

Brian

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[KSMooniac]

Richard, I'm of the same opinion as most on this thread so far.  I'd be seriously interested at $2000 for a kit with an option for local A&P/IA installation, AND easy I.C.A. that don't require a lot of extra expense every year.  Flying my plane somewhere else for an 8 hour installation is a deal-breaker, even if the kit were free.  

 

EDIT:  I'll soften my stance a bit... I went and looked here:  http://www.amsafe.com/products-services/general-aviation/find-a-service-center/north-america/united-states/ and was surprised to see several service center options local to me, so I wouldn't have to travel.  I was afraid there were only a few service centers scattered around the country.

[jrwilson]

Why not make a poll? Not being sarcastic, if you're looking for a tally, poll might be good.

[Bennett]

I've tried, and tried, to find some way to have these belts installed in my 1983 J.  LASAR said they would install them if they were available under a STC, and I volunteered my aircraft as a "test bed for Js", if that would help.  If you run a poll, I suggest that "Yes" answers have a sub-division by cost.  While I would do it at $4,000, I think that $3,000 for the front pair would bring you far more customers. 

[bonal]

NUTS! just out of annual and I was going to have LASAR install regular shoulder belts for a few hundred bucks but I got lost in the new carburetor, starter and airbox work that was needed.  me and the wife ride all over creation on our rice rocket where you have no time to prepare for certain death I think I will just toss a couple of helmets in the back and when the ground starts getting close just put those suckers on then no head injury (better than a air bag any day) and not those fighter guy helmets but real save your noggin SNELL approved ones. while I'm at it why not wear Nomex since most fatalities come from the fire that follows the crash. best way to stay safe is never push the throttle forward. some things you can only do so much to keep safe. I know lets let the government help keep us safe bunch of children.

[carusoam]

I was in a plane with two shoulder straps. Is it called a four point harness?

Made the gears turn in my head...

It required some minimal training to get it right.

What would be the cost to install an AmSafe in an O?

Same as the J, without the additional STC work?

At $4k that is similar to a months income? Aka a big number.

At $2k that is something that can be saved over time on the way to annual.

What would be the highlights I would share with my finance administrator?

Yes, I could go to the web site and get lost in the details. Please refresh my memory?

The automotive industry has had great success with airbags. My '92 Chevy only has one.

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

Richard, I'm of the same opinion as most on this thread so far.  I'd be seriously interested at $2000 for a kit with an option for local A&P/IA installation, AND easy I.C.A. that don't require a lot of extra expense every year.  Flying my plane somewhere else for an 8 hour installation is a deal-breaker, even if the kit were free.  

 

EDIT:  I'll soften my stance a bit... I went and looked here:  http://www.amsafe.com/products-services/general-aviation/find-a-service-center/north-america/united-states/ and was surprised to see several service center options local to me, so I wouldn't have to travel.  I was afraid there were only a few service centers scattered around the country.

 

I am also not thrilled with the required install AT AN AUTHORIZED SERVICE CENTER, and that was before I read about an annual air bag inspection back at the service center again. Scott helpfully posted the link above, which would be much nicer if it had a map--sometimes the closest Center might be in a different state, especially for those of us near the state line. Given that, and the large number of suburban communities on the outskirts of large cities whose names I can't keep up with, a map would be wonderful for looking to see which place is closest. It would also keep me from having to click on several states and then google the city names.

 

Where is Fair Hope, Alabama, and how far away is it? Google maps says it's part of Mobile. I stopped looking after finding 4 Service Centers in Georgia that are closer, and I didn't even finish the list; most of them are in the Atlanta area. Haven't checked the Florida list yet, but would probably have to go back to google maps for those places. Why is it so hard to find the nearest service center? And how much will this annual check that I have to fly somewhere to get cost me, on top of fuel, time off work, etc.? That in itself pretty much kills my interest.

 

Sorry for the bad news. I realize you are trying to help us. But the many airbags in my car only require a single service even ten years after the build date, and it can be done almost anywhere by almost any mechanic. Annual airbag inspections sound like overkill . . . and costly overkill to be paid out of my pocket.

[carusoam]

Good news!

Our NJ MSC is on that list.

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

yes I am interested

[richardheitzman]

I appreciate the feedback. 

 

Installation is a key issue and price point is a key issue. 

 

There are a number of reasons why you need to go to an authorized service center. 

 

1. STC installation which requires an IA sign off and 337 submitted to the FAA

2. System test with test set to certify the installation once it is complete

3. Inflator bottles are considered Hazmat (compressed non toxic device) so the kit must be shipped to a business address and not a residential.

 

Testing on an annual basis can happen at any time, and basically any where you are, at a facility that has the tool . It takes less that a minute to complete.

 

Pricing will have to be discussed.

 

R 

[richardheitzman]

Richard,

I have to echo the adobe statements and add that one of the other reasons I am not interested is the poor customer support. I have tried calling and e-mailing Amsafe looking for alternatives for a set of belts that did not fit quite right in my mooney, I even left your message on mooney space. And got no response. It was a simple request, what was the Amsafe part number. For the Mooney belts and could I have the one I had re webbed to that part number since I had all the hardware. Thankfully one of your competitors was nice enough to explain what had to be done and helped me find a soulution.

Brian

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Hi Brian, 

 

Mooney Space is not my official communication channel. You are more than welcome to email me at my work email which is rheitzman@amsafe.com. I don't even recall the last time I checked the email on the Mooney.com website. Half the time I am here I don't even sign in. So for the sake of this conversation, I do not feel that your comments are justified saying that I provided inadequate customer service. I will ask internally in my customer service department if they received any message from you. If they had, they might have forwarded it to technical support or to engineering. 

 

Either way, I am glad someone took care of you, even if it was my competitor. 

 

R

[PTK]

With all due respect Sir, you need to provide more information than this!

You're asking to gauge interest but provide no technical details. Even the info you provided above is, by your own admission, up in the air! You want people to say "yes" blindly because Mooney puts similar ones in current production aircraft. This is a poor attempt at convincing. I for one don't need you to convince me. Provide me with proper info and I can take it from there.

I need to know exactly how this will mitigate risk. What are the crash event criteria for deployment.

Please be specific with technical details and data.

Thanks.

[orionflt]

Hi Brian,

Mooney Space is not my official communication channel. You are more than welcome to email me at my work email which is rheitzman@amsafe.com. I don't even recall the last time I checked the email on the Mooney.com website. Half the time I am here I don't even sign in. So for the sake of this conversation, I do not feel that your comments are justified saying that I provided inadequate customer service. I will ask internally in my customer service department if they received any message from you. If they had, they might have forwarded it to technical support or to engineering.

Either way, I am glad someone took care of you, even if it was my competitor.

R

Richard,

The mooney space attempt at contact was the last thing I tried and that was at the recommendation of another mooney space member,. My first attempts were e-mail and phone, neither of which I received any response. If it did get forwarded to another department a call or e-mail with a contact reference would be nice, actually any kind of response would have indicated that my questions were wort addressing, the fact that there was no response at all tells me your customer service is lacking. Btw, this is not the first experience I had with your customer service, the first time I contacted them a couple of years ago looking to see if a shoulder harness reel came with a cover, I did get a response that it didn't, but when I asked if a cover was available for it I never received another response.

Now getting to your reasons to require a service center to do the installation of air bag belts...

Any A&P with an IA can fill out and submit a form 337, you do not have to be a service center to do that.

It may be an added expense to initially purchase the test equipment, but I am assuming the test equipment required for installation is also the test equipment used for the annual tests so any shop that has the equipment can recoup that expense doing annual checks.

Most FBOs that would want to do the installations and service have a commercial address to ship to,

I see no valid reason not to let a qualified A&P who has all the proper equipment do the installations and servicing of the seat belts.

Brian

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[aviatoreb]

Hi guys - I hear you all that $4k is a lot to pay for anything you put into a M20C that may have a hull as low as $30k.  In those terms its not worth it.  Say no.

 

That is not how I look at it.  If you buy the argument that these are a safety item and could really save your life someday - I believe that - then this is like buying insurance for your own health.  Forget the airplane - you are investing in your own life/health/well being.

 

Look at it this way - I wear the greatest most comfortable bike helmet I can find - it costs $175 - why when I can buy a helmet for $30?  Because the $30 one is uncomfortable and I don't want to wear it.  Yes - $175 for a piece of plastic/foam/nylon helmet is a lot.  I don't care - because my head is worth a lot to me.  And purely in economic terms - long term injury care is very expensive as is loss of income so just look at the seat belts as an insurance plan.

 

That's my take.

Count me in and I hope enough people say yes to make this go.

 

Richard - I would highly suggest a poll - or better yet something outside of Mooney space - like mail a post card to every Mooney owner on the FAA registry.  That would get a real poll of interest - Posting anything on here on Mooney space just garners lots of chatting and talking - its a forum and that's what we do on forums.  Just watch how folks will pick apart my insurance thoughts above - just for the sport of discussion - its what happens here.  (And in the process we learn some aviation things but its not a good place to gauge over all interest I would think).

[Houman]

Would this be something that can be done in Canada ?, I'm interested, but my M20K Rocket is now imported in Canada, and need this belt/airbag to be Transport Canada certified... Any luck on that ?

Thanks !!!

[Guest]

I don't understand the resistance to having this type of mod done at a Service Center. As an authorized center for Mooney, Diamond and Cirrus, I have all of the Amsafe test gear for these airframes. It's just part of the commitment required to support the airframe.

I don't recall what the test boxes cost, they sure weren't free. How many low budget shops or solo A&P's are going to buy the test boxes and them have the re certified annually for just one or two, airframes?

Clarence

[orionflt]

I don't understand the resistance to having this type of mod done at a Service Center. As an authorized center for Mooney, Diamond and Cirrus, I have all of the Amsafe test gear for these airframes. It's just part of the commitment required to support the airframe.

I don't recall what the test boxes cost, they sure weren't free. How many low budget shops or solo A&P's are going to buy the test boxes and them have the re certified annually for just one or two, airframes?

Clarence

Clarence,

If the cost dropped enough for the average owner to install the air bag belts do you think it would be worth it to you to invest in the equipment todo the installations and the annual test? If enough airbags are out there owners are going to want to be able to have there local shop do the test vs having to take the plane to another shop every year.

Brian

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