High altitude performance, M20J

[Greg1]

I'm looking at a 1979 M20J with the IO360 engine.  Can anyone tell me how this aircraft performs at high density altitude?  I am based out of ANK, Salida, CO, Field Elevation 7523 MSL.

[ArtVandelay]

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20J%20Evaluation/M20J_evaluation_report.html

 

A in depth look at M20J, same site has other models as well.

[Ron McBride]

I have an F, and departed yesterday at 8500 Density altitude. Climb was sloooow.  I did find some thermals to ride to help climb out.  I climbed to 15,500 to go over the sierra's.      If I was based that high, I would have a turbo.   This is just my humble opinion.

 

Ron

[carusoam]

Ron,

Were you able to determine T/O distance from that density altitude?

Thinking along your lines,

-a-

[Smiles201]

Used to be based out of los Alamos 7100 ft. No problems. In summer do not take off at gross. Plane does require somewhat more runway than other 200 HP planes if I recall correctly, but once cleaned up climbs well, and loves to cruise high. I would often cruise 12 to 16 thousand. Has higher ceiling than other 200 HP planes, I confidently flew through several CO passes.

[aaronk25]

Took off from Leadville with in summer da of 12,000ft. 2 people 32gallons fuel and bags....200-250fpm climb.

I fly about 250 hours a year in my J and the best piece of advice I can give if heavy or high da is don't ask the plane to start a aggressive climb until 90kts. Take off and ease it off, get the gear up and then lower the nose a but to get airspeed to 90kts then steepen the climb....it's easy to get behind the power curve.

[N33GG]

Took off from Leadville with in summer da of 12,000ft. 2 people 32gallons fuel and bags....200-250fpm climb. I fly about 250 hours a year in my J and the best piece of advice I can give if heavy or high da is don't ask the plane to start a aggressive climb until 90kts. Take off and ease it off, get the gear up and then lower the nose a but to get airspeed to 90kts then steepen the climb....it's easy to get behind the power curve.

Good advice. True for lots of other aircraft as well, not unique to Mooneys.

[Ron McBride]

We were approx. 2300 #'s, takeoff roll was about 2500 ft.   I have about 75 hrs on a top, so compression is strong.   If I was doing this consistently, I would have a turbo.

I live in Central CA, with Yosemite about 10 miles away and the Sierra's. 10 to 12,000 ft mountains.  I go over them when I want to, but sometimes have to go around.  I have had the F up to 15,000 maybe 20 times.  As with any normally aspirated engine and temp, we can be limited.  I was over Northern Texas, and 14,400 and I could not climb any higher, outside temp was 50F.

 

Ron

[carusoam]

Great detailed explanation.

Thanks, Ron and others.

Greg1, how is that matching your expectations?

Best regards,

-a-

[manoflamancha]

This is why I decided on getting a turbo Mooney over a 201 in spite of the added maintenance cost since living on the west coast it's very important from a peace of mind safety perspective.

[Greg1]

Thanks for all the great input. To be a little more specific about my situation, I am looking for an airplane to replace my Cessna P210. As I approach retirement, I'm not going to be able to support the care and feeding of this aircraft. I do enjoy the turbo power, the useful load, the pressurization, and the known ice capability. I don't enjoy the fuel burn, maintenance upkeep on all those systems, and insurance cost. I want to go into an M20J with my eyes wide open. I don't plan to takeoff at noon in the summer at max gross.. What I would like to do is takeoff at 8AM at 200 pounds under gross and climb to 12500 MSL with reasonable authority. Any more thoughts along those lines?

[N601RX]

Occasionally you  will see a nice F or J model for sale with an aftermarket Turbo Normalizer.  Look for M20 Turbo or RayJay Turbo.

[carusoam]

Many in the retirement range are using the M20E...

Something to look forward to.

Best regards,

-a-

[Rustler]

Greg--

 

I'm just down the road from you in Taos, NM. Had a really nice "J" model until last July, when I purchased a "K" model. Having flown both at 7109', I don't think I'd go back to the non-turbo model. So far, the maintenance hasn't been any worse than before, but it'll be more expensive when the turbo needs work. On an equivalent day here, the difference in climb out is 400-500 fpm for the "J" versus 1100 fpm for my "K".

[Piloto]

Thanks for all the great input. To be a little more specific about my situation, I am looking for an airplane to replace my Cessna P210. As I approach retirement, I'm not going to be able to support the care and feeding of this aircraft. I do enjoy the turbo power, the useful load, the pressurization, and the known ice capability. I don't enjoy the fuel burn, maintenance upkeep on all those systems, and insurance cost. I want to go into an M20J with my eyes wide open. I don't plan to takeoff at noon in the summer at max gross.. What I would like to do is takeoff at 8AM at 200 pounds under gross and climb to 12500 MSL with reasonable authority. Any more thoughts along those lines?

 

I have an M20J with long range tanks (100 gallons total). I climb to 14,000 ft on my way to Florida non stop from Puerto Rico with my wife onboard. The M20J will do your mission but make sure the tires are fully inflated to shorten the ground run on take off. 

 

José

[aaronk25]

If 12,500 is all you need and you watch DA as you said the J will do that, well. The turbo conversion 201 might be a good choice but there is some extra maintenance.

When I flew across the gulf from New Orleans we took off at 2,900lbs and climbed to 19,000ft. What a machine. It's just not gonna do it at 700fpm.....that's all. If you can give it some time to get there it will do fine.........

After all your retiring so, you got time right?

[RobertE]

Thanks for all the great input. To be a little more specific about my situation, I am looking for an airplane to replace my Cessna P210. As I approach retirement, I'm not going to be able to support the care and feeding of this aircraft. I do enjoy the turbo power, the useful load, the pressurization, and the known ice capability. I don't enjoy the fuel burn, maintenance upkeep on all those systems, and insurance cost. I want to go into an M20J with my eyes wide open. I don't plan to takeoff at noon in the summer at max gross.. What I would like to do is takeoff at 8AM at 200 pounds under gross and climb to 12500 MSL with reasonable authority. Any more thoughts along those lines?

It's obvious you're aware of the tradeoffs and the occassional compromises you might have to make.  I would buy a J and not think twice about it.  I fly mine all over the west coast and haven't had a problem.  I'm routinely well below gross as, I bet, will be true for you.  Now, I've never tried this, but I think the ceiling at max gross is something like 21K and at half fuel and one person 23K.  I've departed at 300 under gross midday from airports with density altitudes of 8K w/o a problem.  At max gross?  Probably not.  Nor, I bet, would you.  Just a small, occassional compromise.

[Hank]

There's a 231 in the Airplanes For Sale thread that sounds very nice, with an attractive price. I'm just moving out of WV into the flat south east, so I don't really need a turbo. But it sure sounds good . . .

[N9201A]

Have owned and flown a J for 16+ years in the West, with annual trips over the Rockies to OSH and back, and flying to Big Bear, Mammoth, etc. often.  +1 on comments re knowing limitations, being patient, and ensuring that you are within limits.  Mooneys fly better at altitude than fatter-winged Cherokees and Cessnas with the same power, but the wing needs more speed.  Ensure you have adequate clearance for your expected angle of climb so you don't box yourself in at a mountain strip...but this is true even when operating turbine equipment!

 

It's true that the K will outrun and out climb a J at higher altitudes, but if most of your flying is below 12,000' the added expense and complexity may not be worth it for you.  Look at your missions.  For me, there are a few times I wished I'd had a turbo but for me, those are outweighed by the many others when it made no difference or would have just been one more thing to monitor/break.  But I have friends who really use their Ks for long trips, and cruising in the flight levels with O2 works for them.  If that is your type of flying, get a turbo - our stock Lycs (along with any NA engine) really run out of steam much above 14-15k.

[jlunseth]

All I can say is that takeoff and climb is a nonevent in a 231, even at Leadville.  Depending on the engine configuration you still have another 5,000 (stock -GB) to 10,000 (Merlyn wastegate) to get to critical altitude, so you are operating at 100% HP on takeoff.

[jetdriven]

You can't turbocharge the wing. Performance suffers at Leadville, but it suffers a lot less than a NA airplane.

[chrisk]

You can't turbocharge the wing. Performance suffers at Leadville, but it suffers a lot less than a NA airplane.

+1  My 231 has a noticeably longer take off run at high density altitude airports.  The climb appears shallower too. --That is the distance to clear a 50 foot obstacle.  Having said that,  I would not have concerns going to ANK with it.  

 

As for a J.  I have no experience, but I suspect 90 degree days might be pushing the limits.

[FlyDave]

I just looked at the sectional for leadville - Holly Cow!! I don't think I'd go there in the J that I had. Those valleys look treacherous!

Any considerable wind out of the west or east and it could be curtains, or as Curly Howard put it "Coitens!" without the Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk....

[KSMooniac]

Actually, I went in the middle of the afternoon, but it was in October.    Density altitude at takeoff was still 13k', though.  I had ~40 gallons of fuel, and was solo, so significantly under gross.  A 3000' GROUND ROLL will get your attention, even if you're mentally prepared for it.  The surrounding terrain is fairly benign, fortunately, as opposed to Aspen, so there won't be any immediate terrain issues.  

 

If I lived in CO or routinely needed to visit or cross I would have a turbo.  Of course I don't live in CO and I still want a turbo.  

[fantom]

Mountain Air in NC is always fun to land and take off from. Beautiful, challenging, and expensive to stay at...unless you have friends there.

 

http://www.mountainaircc.com/video-tour/