Calculating Cost of operations for an M20K Rocket

[Houman]

Hi,

 

My co-owner and I are building a partnership agreement for our Mooney M20K Rocket and we want to figure out an hourly rate to cover the cost of using the airplane, probably more Dry, but maybe also Wet.

 

I was wondering if any Rocket owners have something like this figured out. We are looking at the following costs : Engine Overhaul, Annual Maintenance, 50 & 100 Oil change and inspections, IFR certification and else...

 

Any Rocket related experience would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks !!!

[aviatoreb]

Whatever you do - please don't tell me.  I enjoy much more just not knowing.

[Houman]

Whatever you do - please don't tell me.  I enjoy much more just not knowing.

That's funny Erik, I guess if I owned the plane all to my self, I would'nt have cared as much, but in a partnership, you want to make sure it's fair for both !!!

[aaronk25]

This topic scares me.....I think I'm gonna block it cause as a future rocket buyer I don't want to know....

[Hank]

I bought my C one half at a time. We didn't have any set asides, we just split the bills as they came due. My mechanic gave 50% credit for owner-assisted annual, which really helped me learn the plane. I plan on one case of oil and a filter every 50 hours. Get a local quote for the 24-month IFR cert. Tires & battery when needed.

What happens to the money, and where is it kept, when one of you wants out, or buys out the other? Whose name is it kept in, the lucky soul who gets to report the interest on his taxes?

While your fellow Rocket owners are frightened, I am curious to see what number you reach. That will make me feel much better as I poke along slowly below you. :-) 9 gph, 140 knots, etc.

P.S.--I have never figured this for my plane, and don't intend to. It would take the edge off the joy and happiness I feel every time I turn the key and push.

[Houman]

Well, a friend of mine has a partnership for his C172, what they have done, is open a joint bank account at bank, with a 2 credit cards on that account, so it then doesn’t matter who fuels the plane, pays for the annual and everything.

 

They have figured out a wet rate for the plane, and each person at the end of the month, deposits the amount of money depending on their flying time. The rate covers all their costs and covers the engine overhaul and all..

 

If one person decided to sell their part of the plane, whoever buys the part also on the joint account, this way, the plane doesn’t depreciate because of engine is near overhaul time, the money for it is already in place...

[NotarPilot]

 

They have figured out a wet rate for the plane, and each person at the end of the month, deposits the amount of money depending on their flying time. The rate covers all their costs and covers the engine overhaul and all..

What happens if one guy flies ROP and the other guy flies LOP?

To answer the OP's question, there are many factors you would have to consider to determine your hourly costs. Will the plane be financed or purchased outright? How much are storage costs? Annuals can costs anywhere from $1000 on up. My unscheduled maintenence costs seem to be around $1000-$1500 annually as I like to get problems fixed as they come up.

I would suggest you use one of many excel spreadsheets out there to determine your costs. I can email you one that I used to help me determine my costs before I bought my plane. It definitely helped. Let me know if you need one or have any questions regarding ownership or unscheduled Maintenence costs I've encountered.

I financed most of my plane and have it hangared at an airport in SoCal that is one of the more expensive ones in the area. But I pay that money to have my plane just 10 minutes from my house. When you figure all those fixed costs in with the fuel costs and the number of hours I fly per year and I'm a little north of $300 per hour. If you just figure the fuel costs (which I prefer), on the Hobbs, I'm burning about 7.8 GPH at $4.95 a gallon which equates to $38.80 per hour or 9.3 GPH on the tach so figure $46.04 per hour that way. Those numbers are much easier to stomach.

[PMcClure]

The way we did the F Model partnership was a per month fee to cover all fixed cost (taxes, insurance, hanger, etc...). Then we had an hourly rate for major maintenance. The fixed rate was split equally between all partners regardless of hours flown. The major maintenance varied between $20 and $40 per hour and was mainly for the prop and engine. From time to time assessments were made to cover other major repairs. These assessments were split among partners. This worked well and we never had an argument.  

[Houman]

I bought my C one half at a time. We didn't have any set asides, we just split the bills as they came due. My mechanic gave 50% credit for owner-assisted annual, which really helped me learn the plane. I plan on one case of oil and a filter every 50 hours. Get a local quote for the 24-month IFR cert. Tires & battery when needed.

What happens to the money, and where is it kept, when one of you wants out, or buys out the other? Whose name is it kept in, the lucky soul who gets to report the interest on his taxes?

While your fellow Rocket owners are frightened, I am curious to see what number you reach. That will make me feel much better as I poke along slowly below you. :-) 9 gph, 140 knots, etc.

P.S.--I have never figured this for my plane, and don't intend to. It would take the edge off the joy and happiness I feel every time I turn the key and push.

Hi,

thanks for the offer, can you please email the spreadsheets to my email : Pilotinglife@hotmail.com

Thanks !

[Hank]

Sounds like two effective ways to do it:  split the fixed costs [hangar, insurance, GPS data updates, tax, etc.], then have an hourly charge to cover the things that vary with use--engine/prop time, tire wear, battery life, etc. Don't forget that tubes cost almost as much as the tires.

[aviatoreb]

That's funny Erik, I guess if I owned the plane all to my self, I would'nt have cared as much, but in a partnership, you want to make sure it's fair for both !!!

 

I know - I was just being in a funny mood.  :-)

 

A lot about the rocket costs are the same as any J on up.  Panel, airframe, gear, are all the same stuff.  Hangar, insurance, etc, all the same.  Fuel is more but only a lot more if you choose to go fast.

 

One thing I can say is that any work that needs to be done firewall forward tends to take more time so cost more since its pretty darn tight - so hard for the poor mechanic to get hands in there.  I have heard it is comparable though in this respect to the other big bore continental Mooneys.

[yvesg]

Before I acquired my Mooney completely I did get into a partnership on it. Most of the time it was with one other fellow and also two other fellows. I did not invent the system they used but adapted it to a three way partnership at one point. In a nutshell:

- It used a virtual bank account

- Fixed costs were split evenly

- Fuel costs were split according to usage

- There was no hourly rate paid as such

- Engine overhaul reserve was more like: Whoever used the airplane most had to pay more in the case where the engine gets overhauled or the share got sold. An engine overhaul hourly rate was decided and put into the agreement. Here is an example: If it was set to $20 If I flew 100 hours more than the partner when the engine gets overhauled, I would have to pay $2000 more then him for the overhaul. If I sold my share of the aircraft instead of needing the engine work, same thing would happen: I would need to pay $2000 to the partner.

The nice thing about this system is that there is no need to put money aside for the future events, you pay as you go. This system also works if one of the flyers is only renting hours and does not pay fixed costs.

Let me know if you have any questions about this system.

Yves

[Houman]

The way we did the F Model partnership was a per month fee to cover all fixed cost (taxes, insurance, hanger, etc...). Then we had an hourly rate for major maintenance. The fixed rate was split equally between all partners regardless of hours flown. The major maintenance varied between $20 and $40 per hour and was mainly for the prop and engine. From time to time assessments were made to cover other major repairs. These assessments were split among partners. This worked well and we never had an argument.

Yeah, we are doing the same thing, fixed costs divided equally and usage cost would contain the overhaul and maintenance...

The fixed costs are somewhat easy to predict, but usage cost is not something I am familiar with on this airplane, specially with the Turbocharge and the bigger engine... The current owner owns the plane without any financing on it, I'm buying 50% of it, so we need to keep this fair for both...

[jetdriven]

Dry rate on a J is around 32$ per hour and realistically it's twice that. That's after monthly expenses and before gas.

[RocketAviator]

Whatever you do - please don't tell me. I enjoy much more just not knowing.

I'm with Erik... i don't want to know and I sure as the devil don't want my wife to know!

I hope you enjoy your Rocket as much as we do.

Fly safe

[aviatoreb]

I'm with Erik... i don't want to know and I sure as the devil don't want my wife to know!

I hope you enjoy your Rocket as much as we do.

Fly safe

 

:-)  The brotherhood of blissful denial.  Welcome brother and enjoy!

[fantom]

Topics like this should be banned

[Houman]

I'm with Erik... i don't want to know and I sure as the devil don't want my wife to know!

I hope you enjoy your Rocket as much as we do.

Fly safe

Well, I know about the wife thing, my ex didn’t even want me to get a jet ski for more than 8 years, so instead, I got her her walking papers (or maybe she gave me my walking papers) so now, I decide how to spend my hard earned cash, and I can't think of any better way that doing it at 200 kias ... or maybe 180 kias if I want to spend a bit less on fuel!!!

Question here is that in order to have a harmonious partnership with the other owner, and prevent any undue frustration as to who pays for what, it is much better to have an agreement about this... it's like a prenup, it's not needed until it is needed, and believe me, I learned that lesson the hardest way possible !!! lol

[larryb]

Here's a thought: put all costs except fuel in the fixed cost bucket. All maintenance, reserve, annual, etc. This minimizes hourly cost and maximizes incentive to fly. I feel that every hour I fly extends the life of my engine by an hour.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[yvesg]

Here's a thought: put all costs except fuel in the fixed cost bucket. All maintenance, reserve, annual, etc. This minimizes hourly cost and maximizes incentive to fly. I feel that every hour I fly extends the life of my engine by an hour. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Completely agree with you Larry... this is how we did it. Also, use time in the air, not engine time to calculate costs... this prevents people from rushing to take off or shutdown.

Yves

[jetdriven]

if you rent it dry on the tach time, it avoids the rush for takeoff. The airplane burns 8$ an hour of gas, and the tach adds up at less than half of clock time. Or, simply put, its 23$ an hour for PIC time in your log book.

 

This aero club at our home field, rents the planes on the hobbs hour. All the time I hear the renters crank up an airplane, and its on the takeoff roll in two minutes or less. That has to be hard one engines. Their Arrow has had 3 out of 4 cylinders fail in the 100 hours since it was overhauled.

[Hank]

I wish my C could lean out enough to only burn $8/hour in fuel! It's more like $48 . . . And I notice 10% or less variation between my watch and the tach, if I cruise at 2500; if I'm only at 6500 msl, though, I'll run her at 2400 and get more like 0.1 more time than tach per hour.

 

Please share your methods, Byron, I'm curious!

 

At my old home, typical time was 3-4 minutes from turn & push to full forward, 'cause it's a small field. Here at Auburn University Regional, I taxi at least four times as far and usually cross a runway, so it can be much longer even if I don't have to wait my turn with the University's Skyhawks doing TnG's.

[jetdriven]

Taxi burns 1.8 GPH or around 8$. The lowest I have seen in steady state flight was 3.8 GPH which is a bit more, around 20-24$.

[bd32322]

Here is the thread with some numbers from rocket owners. Sorry everyone who didnt want to see some numbers

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/5744-rocket-annual-operating-costs/?hl=rocket

[Houman]

I kind of agree with you both, but my co-owner rarely flyies this plane, only for tripps to Florida or Bahamas, he has another plane for short trips and sunday afternoon burger runs. I on the other hand, will use this plane to build up my hours and go many places, and just to start, I have to do 25 hours as requested by insurance before I can take passengers, so I don't think he would find that fair... If we pay the same amount to the reserve if he uses the plane for 10h that year and I for 60 or 70 hours...