Custome & Border Patrol Finally stopped me--with armed police

[scottfromiowa]

You don't even need the child.

We have a guy here who has done a fair amount of out of country flying with samples of his last 15 meals on his shirt and stains from lots more on his ten day old smelly cargo pants. CBP wouldn't come near him or his plane for fear of the stench.

The American Constitution is an amazing document that even our Supreme Court has trouble interpreting. What a thankless, suck-ass job CBP must be, subject incident not withstanding.

These will be the 'good old days' after nukes proliferate the Middle East.

But nuclear destruction is A-OK on the board. Got it.

[rockydoc]

Post pulled. Language? More censorship here than on cable. What is worse, loss of freedom as a pilot or loss of freedom of speech?

Why do you have to decide how much is too much erosion of your rights?

SAD.

Point well made!

[aviatoreb]

I would be interested in the dog's record. He obviously offered a false positive in this case. How many times does he (or the dog handler team) have to be wrong before probable cause is no longer valid?

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I know you were just kidding - 

 

But I think the implication is that the human officer wanted to enter the plane, so he claimed the dog made a hit and no one could prove otherwise in a court of law in practice.  So effectively the concept of requiring probable cause is nullified since in practice the officer can always claim probable cause.

[rockydoc]

After doing extensive research on the internet and speaking directly with John Yodice, general counsel for the AOPA, one point becomes blatantly apparent.  i.e.  The burden of proof on any action taken by the FAA lies totally on the shoulders of the FAA.  It is best that we refuse to say anything and immediately ask if we can leave.  If we are told we cannot lWe would "appreciate your cooperation in completing and signing the certificate below...and forwarding it to the FAA office...so that FAA can be assured that the Aircraft Condition Notice was received by the owner...and that corrective action has been accomplished.  Privacy Act Statement.  Submission of all the date is voluntary...There is no penalty for failure to complete and return the certification to FAA."  

 

In other words, the FAA is wanting you to give them personal jurisdiction over you so that they can do with you as they see fit!!!!!   We should NEVER voluntarily give the FAA (or any other government entity) personal jurisdiction over us.  The burden of proof is on them to prove that they have personal jurisdiction.  This is a difficult thing for them to prove.

 

Based on my experience last week and what I have learned on the internet and from John Yodice, I would react differently in the future as follows:

1.  I would leave the AWC displayed in the airplane, lock the door, and when asked to present the AWC, say that the FAR says the AWC must be visible from the outside of the airplane and to passengers and crew.  And, pointing through the window, I will say, "There it is."

2.  I would point out to the inspector that there is no such thing as a ramp check for Part 91.  That it only applies to Part 135 and Part 121.

3.  I would definitely not let my pilot license nor any other documents out of my hands.  i have now made copies of them.  I would hold the documents up, gripping them tightly and say, "Here they are.  Inspect them. Here are copies for you."  But, I would never let the originals leave my hands under any circumstances.  let them use force to take them from me, but that's the only way they're going to take them.

4.  Immediately, ask them, "Am I free to go?"  If they say "Yes."  I leave immediately.  If they say, "No," i tell them i want an attorney.  And, refuse to say anything else.  Based on my experience last week when i did this, after asking for an attorney, he immediately told me i was free to go!!

[rockydoc]

After doing extensive research on the internet and speaking directly with John Yodice, general counsel for the AOPA, one point becomes blatantly apparent.  i.e.  The burden of proof on any action taken by the FAA lies totally on the shoulders of the FAA.  It is best that we refuse to say anything and immediately ask if we can leave.  If we are told we cannot lWe would "appreciate your cooperation in completing and signing the certificate below...and forwarding it to the FAA office...so that FAA can be assured that the Aircraft Condition Notice was received by the owner...and that corrective action has been accomplished.  Privacy Act Statement.  Submission of all the date is voluntary...There is no penalty for failure to complete and return the certification to FAA."  

 

In other words, the FAA is wanting you to give them personal jurisdiction over you so that they can do with you as they see fit!!!!!   We should NEVER voluntarily give the FAA (or any other government entity) personal jurisdiction over us.  The burden of proof is on them to prove that they have personal jurisdiction.  This is a difficult thing for them to prove.

 

Based on my experience last week and what I have learned on the internet and from John Yodice, I would react differently in the future as follows:

1.  I would leave the AWC displayed in the airplane, lock the door, and when asked to present the AWC, say that the FAR says the AWC must be visible from the outside of the airplane and to passengers and crew.  And, pointing through the window, I will say, "There it is."

2.  I would point out to the inspector that there is no such thing as a ramp check for Part 91.  That it only applies to Part 135 and Part 121.

3.  I would definitely not let my pilot license nor any other documents out of my hands.  i have now made copies of them.  I would hold the documents up, gripping them tightly and say, "Here they are.  Inspect them. Here are copies for you."  But, I would never let the originals leave my hands under any circumstances.  let them use force to take them from me, but that's the only way they're going to take them.

4.  Immediately, ask them, "Am I free to go?"  If they say "Yes."  I leave immediately.  If they say, "No," i tell them i want an attorney.  And, refuse to say anything else.  Based on my experience last week when i did this, after asking for an attorney, he immediately told me i was free to go!!

Oops, made a typo above.  I was pointing out the language the FAA uses on the reverse side of FAA form 8620-1, Aircraft Condition Notice, wherein the are asking us to give them personal jurisdiction over us.  i.e.  "We (the FAA) would appreciate your cooperation in completing and signing the certificate below and forwarding it to the FAA,,, so tha FAA can be assured that the Aircraft Condition Notice was received by the owner and that corrective action has been accomplished....  Privacy Statement. ... Submission of all the data is voluntary. ... There is no penalty for failure to complete and return the certification to FAA."

[mooniac15u]

Post pulled. Language? More censorship here than on cable. What is worse, loss of freedom as a pilot or loss of freedom of speech?

Why do you have to decide how much is too much erosion of your rights?

SAD.

Freedom of speech doesn't really mean that you can say anything you want anywhere you want. It just means that the government can't stop you from saying it. Privately owned venues can enforce whatever standards they choose. Anyone who doesn't like those standards is free to start their own venue with their own standards. I, for one, prefer a certain level of civility.

[scottfromiowa]

Freedom of speech doesn't really mean that you can say anything you want anywhere you want. It just means that the government can't stop you from saying it. Privately owned venues can enforce whatever standards they choose. Anyone who doesn't like those standards is free to start their own venue with their own standards. I, for one, prefer a certain level of civility.

You have zero idea about what point I was really trying to make.

[mooniac15u]

You have zero idea about what point I was really trying to make.

You were apparently upset about having a post deleted and you were ranting about freedom of speech. It wasn't clear that you had a point.

[rob]

The owners and operators of this board have freedoms too, same as any of us. Since it's their sandbox, one of those freedoms that they have is the right to pour in or out any sand they don't like.

As stated; you're always free to make your own sandbox.

[fantom]

The owners and operators of this board have freedoms too, same as any of us. Since it's their sandbox, one of those freedoms that they have is the right to pour in or out any sand.

It's my observation that the 'sand' is managed very well and quite subtlety here, and I thank 'them' for it.

[rob]

I agree

[scottfromiowa]

There you go...talking politics...sorry, I have been conditioned by the suble moderation on this forum that THAT is unacceptable. Great post, except you forgot gun control. We have stopped being a nation where the rule of law is the rule. THAT and a move away from following tthe document that the county was founded upon...The Constitution, show we are at a crossroads.

My eyes are WIDE OPEN.

[scottfromiowa]

Great link. Thanks for sharing. Let the "What does this have to do with aviation" responses begin.

[flyboy0681]

These are scary times we live in ... The walls seem to be closing in ... Closing in on our freedom. The walls of government control, and the walls of totalitarianism thinking ... (Everyone must believe in global warming, gay marriage, free birth control, correcting "income inequality" by more government handouts, more debt, more spending ... or they are labeled anti-science, bigoted, conducting a war on women, greedy, a heretic or a hater) ...

 

 

 

I take a different tact, if I don't believe in pro-life, a person's ability to carry a gun anywhere they want to go in public, in gay rights, school prayer, if I don't worship "their" Gd, believe that the planet is warming up, the ability to contribute as much money to a political campaign or group as I want, and most recently, the ability to have my cattle graze on federal lands for absolutely nothing, then I'm labeled a bleeding heart liberal.

 

I don't think these are scary times at all and I can't think of one single freedom that I've been restricted from since... well, I don't know when.

[scottfromiowa]

No one cares about our individual politics but us. Most do care about individual loss of freedom and infringement of our individual way of life. Most do care about the future of the country.

The OP'er could have been me. I believe the chance that he had illegal drugs did NOT trump his individual rights. I believe this type of oppression is NOT what the USA is to most...

[slowflyin]

I know you were just kidding -

But I think the implication is that the human officer wanted to enter the plane, so he claimed the dog made a hit and no one could prove otherwise in a court of law in practice. So effectively the concept of requiring probable cause is nullified since in practice the officer can always claim probable cause.

Either the dog was wrong, the handler misread the dog, or the handler faked the event. My point is these wonderful animals are essentially four legged search warrants and I'm curious if there are any checks and balances with regards to the "track record" of the dog handler combo. If my right to privacy is to be violated utilizing this kind of probable cause what is the standard? Is 75% good enough? 50%? Do they keep up with the stats?

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[flyboy0681]

 

 

 "Did you read poster's story in this thread? Just curious? These aren't isolated events you know" ... These absolutely ARE isolated cases . How many flight operations are there conducted by general aviation and how many were stopped this way? The LA Times story stated that in three and a half years, 212 planes were intercepted at airports, of which 39 of those turned out to be actual drug runs. How many hundreds of thousands of flights were there during that time? Now don't get me wrong, based upon my posts on the subject I'm as appalled as the next guy about this, but lets take a step back to see what our actual chances are of getting stopped like this.

 

I can't recall ever having a run-in with TSA, and I hold million mile status with American. I know what the drill is, and just like a lemming, I fully cooperate and comply. The faster I get my shoes off and laptop out, the quicker I'll be on the other side putting my shoes and belt back on.

 

​Government has always been overreaching. You don't like it, I don't like it but that's just the nature of things. Some overreaching is good in my opinion, such as airbag requirements, which have saved thousands of lives. Sometimes it's not justified, such as farm subsidies for large corporations.

 

I'm all for border projection, but erecting a fence along with guard towers every few hundred feet along a thousand miles doesn't sound practical to me. How much would it cost to man those towers 24/7?

 

 

"I would say it is not until AFTER their man leaves office, do voters actually honestly evaluate if the climate their representatives created and the policies/legislative acts they signed into laws were ACTUALLY good for the country". I agree 100%, which is why I'm willing to wait for the jury to come in on Obamacare. Many of the predictions that one side had made has not come to be, such as tens of millions of American's were going to be forced into part-time hours. Maybe it will occur and maybe it won't, I'm just saying lets see how it gels before showing fangs.

[OR75]

I can't recall ever having a run-in with TSA, and I hold million mile status with American. I know what the drill is, and just like a lemming, I fully cooperate and comply. The faster I get my shoes off and laptop out, the quicker I'll be on the other side putting my shoes and belt back

[DaV8or]

Here is an example of our police state in action. This is from another forum discussing the same topic here. In this case, the guy was clearly baiting the police to make this video, but still he seems to be correct in his statements and it really shouldn't matter what his motives were.

 

[scottfromiowa]

This thread is not worth one second more of my time. No one is changing anyone's minds here. Some have on rose colored glasses regarding Big Government.

My eyes are wide open.

I just changed my voter registration from Republican to Independent.

Some want MORE big government.

I don't.

[flyboy0681]

Here is an example of our police state in action. This is from another forum discussing the same topic here. In this case, the guy was clearly baiting the police to make this video, but still he seems to be correct in his statements and it really shouldn't matter what his motives were.

 

 

He clearly baited them and was ready to do battle (and rightly so). Do you know if this went any further than this posting on YouTube? It's clear to me that Deputy Fife commanded the dog to scratch at that exact spot, prompting the search. 

 

Scenes like this have taken place for decades and are nothing new. I'm wondering with video and audio now required by many municipalities whether the incidence has increased or decreased over the years. Back in the 70's and 80's it was commonplace for police to plant drugs in a car during a stop and I recall a 60 Minutes segment where they had caught an unscrupulous trooper doing so with hidden cameras ("Wheel wheel, whata we have hee ah?") We don't hear about things like that anymore. They may very well exist, but just don't make it to the news like it used to.

 

Let me be clear, I'm making absolutely no excuse, but these law enforcement men and women do have a hell of a tough job and I could see how after a long day of stopping low lifes and assholes, how a guy challenging them could result in such a situation.

 

As for your choice of using the word "police state", I don't think you are too far off. I, for one, have noticed how since 9/11 police departments have entirely changed their look. It used to be that the standard for uniforms around the country was blue pants with a blue shirt, with a white T-shirt showing through around the collar. I feel this look made police approachable and friendly (think Reed and Malloy). Compare that to today, where the standard is a jet black uniform, boots, bullet-proof vest worn on the outside, automatic weapons at their side (sometimes two gun) and a black patrol car to match. I'm thoroughly convinced that if 9/11 hadn't occurred that blue uniforms would still be the standard issue. I'm sorry if I'm about to offend some out there, but I think that as heinous, cruel and emotionally draining as 9/11 was, we as a country totally over-reacted in its aftermath. Everything from two wars to the militarism of our police departments to the disappearance of observation areas around our airports to the crawlers that made a permanent home at the bottom of the screen on Fox and CNN. We as a nation have spent trillions - trillions - since then to keep a few thousand unsavory ideologues at arms length. Just keep in mind that Israel, which truly defends itself from such attacks every day of the week, spends less per capita on their security because they work smarter. And it's only going to get worse folks and there ain't nothing we can do about it. That train has left the station.

[stevesm20b]

This kind of thing makes me sick. This is the way people were treated in Nazi Germany. This sort of thing should never happen in the United States. The worst part is there is nothing a person can do about it when they find themselves in this kind of situation. 

[flyboy0681]

oth wings, then disassembling my plane ... yeah ... I'd say that's over the top.

I didn't miss rockydoc's comment either ... He does more business in Mexico because the Mexican government is easier to deal with than the United States government. Go figure ...

 

I agree with you on all accounts, but take exception to your Mexican government comment. To the best of my knowledge, an American going to their local civic center to apply for a permit or make a request for something is not met with the person behind the glass asking for "a little something" to help the process go faster - or at all. 

[HartParr]

Now we know how the folks of Iraq and Afganistan feel. I bet all of those government, quasi military, actors spent time there and got their police training there. All the control and intimidation techniques that you described were developed in and for those theatres. We repress others at the risk of being repressed ourselves.

That statement is pathetic...go vote for a politician that 'promises' to end it. I bet none of the fascist/libs were in Iraq or Afganistan.

[Yetti]

I got my butt frisked by the TSA once.   That was after the fancy scanner.   What we learned about the effectiveness of the TSA is that one guy in LA with the AR-15 if he had not focused on the TSA checkpoint could have gone and hijacked a plane on the ground.