Avioncs Upgrade

[ncdmtb]

I am looking at upgrading the avionics on an N-reg M20E. Trimble2000, KMA20, KX155 out, GMA340 and GTN650 in. I would like to buy the avionics in the US and have the avionics installed in Europe.

Any advice/recommendations on where to get this done at a fair price?

-Nick

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[Awful_Charlie]

I would have thought Avionik Straubing would be reasonably convenient, and certainly capable of a good job (unless you know otherwise?)

 

In my experience, pick any two from timeliness, price and quality - if you get all three you've done better than I have ever managed

[ncdmtb]

I have heard good things about Straubing, but they are supposed to be quite expensive. High hourly rates and they typically exceed estimates....I have no experience with them, that is just what I have heard.

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[terbang]

I've been to Straubing a few month ago to get our GNS480/GMX200 replaced by a GTN750. They tried hard to be in time, but they failed because of an A/P issue. However, I'm still very satisfied with their work.

[Awqward]

In general, how have shops responded when you bring your own avionics for installation? I'm thinking of buying some when I visit Houston and hand carrying back....

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[carusoam]

My shop prefers to buy the hardware they install.

They can often get a better price than I could.

If I brought in a used box and asked them to install it. Time and materials would be the rule. Then, I would expect a lesson in additional paperwork or tag that I should have gotten.

They would make significantly more on the install, than on the box itself.

I have been working with the same people for 14 years. The quality of install and service weighs on the decision...

This has been my individual experience...

I would consider asking your installer how they feel, prior to making the purchase. They may have advice on paperwork or customs issues....

Best regards,

-a-

[Awqward]

Thanks Carusoam...yes I can see that "supply and install" would more attractive to an avionics shop...the trouble is I have been quoted $4,800 for a CGR30-P here in the UK vs around $3,200 I could buy it in the US and hand carry it back....I'm sure in the US the dealer gets a discount from the manufacturer that may not be available directly so everyone wins...but with all the import duty and value added tax and the general rip-off culture over here the price for the unit goes up by 50%.... So my question was to anyone who has brought their own unit to a shop in Europe vs supply and install?.....

I won't even start on the installation costs over here vs the US!! It is not crazy to fly an avionics guy over here on a free holiday and still cone out in front...and probably with a better quality job! I was quoted around 60hrs by a well known UK shop vs around 20hrs by general consensus on this forum....

[ncdmtb]

I am thinking about doing an avionics upgrade this year (GTN650, GMA340...) If there are 1-2 others thinking about an upgrade, maybe it would make sense to fly some one over to do the lot.

Thoughts?

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[Awqward]

Not a bad thought....anyone else think so?

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[podair]

Re bringing an avionics specialist over: very interesting idea, especially if we group a bunch of aircraft together. I'd happily provide a hangar and accomodation in SW France (and wine!) if you know of anyone in the US happy to fly over.

The trick afterwards is to work out the paperwork. I guess for N reg that would be fine, mine is EASA reg but the work I am thinking of having done (old panel to 6pack and a couple new radios) I can probably find someone to sign off. The other hiccup might be for things like new Garmin GPS/Coms like the GTN where only Garmin approved installers can buy it. I am not sure the cost saving is going to be substantial unless you find someone who actually is an approved avionics installer in the US and wants a paid holiday in Europe in autumn. You'll need someone with Mooney experience to be happy to work on our cramped panels. In addition, you'd need to pay VAT on the kit and the work to be perfectly legit...

[manu damaschin]

...good experience for Straubing as well! I overhauled my gyro there....

Manu

[Awqward]

Yes I've only heard very good things about Straubing....although for me it's a very long way from Scotland to SE Germany!

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[pk911]

I can recommend RGV Avionics in the UK.

They are reliable, all estimates are correct and pretty nice work is done. Pricing o.k.

They converted my 430/530 into 650/750, all worked perfekt!

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, PK!

Always nice to see the number of Long bodies increasing here...

Best regards,

-a-

[Piloto]

How do you handle with Eurocontrol when you do not have a 8.33KHz COM? A friend of mine is planning on touring Europe on his Aerostar 601P but has no 8.33KHz COMS (three decimal digits, like 125.015)

 

José

[mmgreve]

Jose,

 

No expert, but I believe he just needs to stay out of class A, B and C at present time - or go VFR.

 

MG

[Awqward]

The implementation schedule is here: https://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/InformationNotice2013018.pdf

Theoretically all IFR aircraft must have 8.33kHz spacing since Jan 1st this year....however I am not aware of any actual frequencies below FL195 yet....I have a GNS430W which has the capability for 8.33 spacing with a few twists and clicks in the setup, but I still have it set up on 25kHz spacing...

If your friend has a 430W or 530W he may not realize it but he will already have the 8.33 capability

AQ

[Awful_Charlie]

at the moment you can get away with 25kHz just about everywhere below FL195, CFMU (Eurocontrol) will reject a flight plan if you don't put the 'Y' in the comms equipment and file a route that goes higher.

 

The legality of one vs. two 8.33 boxes is complex, changing as time moves on, and varies by country and CO and NCO ops, but as long as you have one or more 8.33 working box(es), you can probably get away with it for NCO until 1st Jan 2018 and maybe longer

[Piloto]

Unfortunately my 601P friend has the old King Silver Crown radios with 25KHz only capability. It kind of surprise me that Europe needed that many channels vs. the US. You need a lot of controllers and sectors to require that many channels.

 

José

[Awful_Charlie]

With 25kHz only radios, your friend is going to be stuck below FL195, but should be ok as long as staying out of the big commercial airports such as Heathrow, Paris CDG or Frankfurt.

 

Frequency allocation is terribly inefficient in the EU, as for the time being, frequencies are allocated by each state rather than centrally, so consequently each state has to liaise with its neighbours to avoid interferance, and due to each state 'protecting' whatever it can. Yes, there's lots of controllers, and lots of sectors ;-)

[Awqward]

The problem is that "Europe" is not one country but 28 (I think at last count!) countries....there is no single FCC to manage the frequencies.... It becomes a "negotiation" between old rivals.... Yes it is absolutely ridiculous to require more frequencies than 25 kHz spacing can deliver....

AQ

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[ncdmtb]

I have not yet upgraded to 8,33 yet and fly IFR all time (Germany, France). Will be flying to Poland next weekend.

I am upgrading to a GTN650 and will be compliant soon, but so far no issues.