Pilot Pack - Jeppesen

[Bennett]

I just came up for renewal of my Jepp database subscriptions for my GTN 750, GTN 650, and AERA 796. The invoice they sent me was for $1,140.00, which while less than the prior year, still seemed expensive. I called them and learned that they now have a "Pilot Pack" for those who have both the GTN 750 and GTN 650. Same data updates as prior but they have added: Safe Taxi, Obstacles, Terrain, and Airport Directory to the subscription.

 

This is what is included:

 

10018500 Electronic Chart Services.Western US.JV MFD IFR.Coverage
10100874 NavData.Coverage.Garmin.GTN 600 & 700 Series.West/Central USA
10117385 Airport Directory.Coverage.Garmin.GTN 600 & 700 Series.AOPA.United States
10117386 Obstacles.Coverage.Garmin.GTN 600 & 700 Series.United States & Europe
10117389 SafeTaxi.Coverage.Garmin.GTN 600 & 700 Series.United States
10117392 Terrain 9.8as.Coverage.Garmin.GTN 600 & 700 Series.Worldwide
10169513 Electronic Chart Services.Garmin Portable GPS.AERA 795/796 Web.Initial

 

The total cost is $986.50, or about a savings of about $164 from the prior year.

 

There was no indication on the invoice that they sent me that "Pilot Pack" was available, which I think they should have.  And they also threw in Mobile FlightDeck VFR and IFR for the iPad.

 

I still think that this is far too expensive, in light of what we receive for our ForeFlight annual subscriptions, but at least Jeppesen is responding to competition (somewhat), and the Garmin boxes need these database updates for approaches, etc.

[Earl]

Don't know about the Pilot Pack but I do envy your GTN-750/650 avionics.   I do have a 430 and 696 and wonder if there is a package for that combination.  Both are expensive to keep current but a small price to pay for the capability and safety factor.

[rbridges]

I still get butt hurt paying the renewal on just  the 430W.  I agree that it's nice to see garmin lowering its prices.

[Hank]

Rob, I am sensing a new officer-in-making for the Mooney Owners CB Club! I also feel your pain every January.

[Carl S]

I still get butt hurt paying the renewal on just  the 430W.  I agree that it's nice to see garmin lowering its prices.

I just renewed my 430W subscription and it seems the price went UP from last year.

[M016576]

Any thought to only keeping the 750 updated? The primary reason to keep a WAAS GPS updated is to make it legal for WAAS approaches. Even if it isn't updated each cycle, it still functions fully (at least the 430w/530w do). No need to keep the nav database up to date on the 650 if it's not your primary GPS for approaches. Could save ~$500 a year and lose no capability. Then again, if you have a 750 AND a 650, you probably aren't too concerned about the extra 500 bucks to keep them both updated.

[Bob_Belville]

I am paying ~ $1500 for updates through Garmin only for a 750 (~$1000) and a 696 (~$500). I have approach plates as well as nav data on both which I probably don't need. There's no package discount for panel and portable GPSs.

[Bennett]

I keep my GTN 650 decoupled from the GTN 750 for most functions except traffic.  I regard the GTN 650 as backup and an augmentation to the GTN 750.  The GTN 750 is best for the approach plates, and the GTN 650 is coupled to its own VORLOC head, mostly for an ILS approach.  Redundancy and alternatives are not cheap, but you can't buy them in the air.  I only buy the GTN subscriptions for IFR for the Western States, as that is where I generally fly.  A full national IFR subscription would be more expensive.  The AERA 696 database updates are very inexpensive in this "package". The best part is that I don't have to spend hours putting in new paper plates, and removing the old ones. I've always hated that process. Bob, is that correct that you are buying your updates from Garmin, and not Jeppesen?

 

I have found that calling the sales department at Jeppesen is helpful, as they have always come up with something better than I calculate from their catalog.  You can unbundle the updates, and chose which ones you want for what box. In my prior setup, adding data for the GTN 650 was about $350.00, not the $500.00 as suggested above. 

[M016576]

Everyone has to evaluate what they want, what they need, and what they can afford when it comes to these (price gouging) updates. Not to hijack the thread too much, but when you look at these devices it's important to know what capability you get for your money.

Navdata. This is the important one. Keeping it updated and in cycle allows you to fly WAAS approaches legally. Updated navdata is not required to use your GPS in the enroute structure for IFR flight: you can use expired databases, so long as you verify that the points are still accurate. If you wish to shoot a GPS approach, you must have an updated nav database.

Terrain data. Not updated too often (the terrain around the world isn't changing... But the mapping process continues to get more detailed). Not required to be updated to use your panel mounted GPS for IFR flight. Does add TAWS safety value.

Obstacle data. Updated every couple months. Not required to be updated to use your panel mounted GPS for IFR flight. Also adds TAWS safety value

Safe taxi. Not required to be updated for IFR flight. Kind of neat though.

Airport directory. Not required to be updated for IFR flight. Also kind of neat.

For me, I find myself using my iPhone or Aera 560 as a Psuedo MFD (handles the safe taxi / airport directory type functionality). I update the navdata on the aera once every two or so years. I keep the nav data updated on my G430W in order to shoot WAAS approaches with it. I update the obstacles once every couple years on that, too. I've updated the terrain once in 5 years- I regret doing it now: that $100+ bucks could have been better spent on avgas.

Cost for western US updates for a 430W is $335.00. Or 27 dollars a month. Cost for obstacles once every 2 years is ~75.00. That is more than I want to pay for these services, but we don't have a choice on vendors. I guess I could just fly ILS's all the time, and stop updating the navdata- but having the database updated every 28 days means not having to check that the points haven't moved. So there is some convenience there.

All just my opinion, YMMV

[Bob_Belville]

I keep my GTN 650 decoupled from the GTN 750 for most functions except traffic.  I regard the GTN 650 as backup and an augmentation to the GTN 750.  The GTN 750 is best for the approach plates, and the GTN 650 is coupled to its own VORLOC head, mostly for an ILS approach.  Redundancy and alternatives are not cheap, but you can't buy them in the air.  I only buy the GTN subscriptions for IFR for the Western States, as that is where I generally fly.  A full national IFR subscription would be more expensive.  The AERA 696 database updates are very inexpensive in this "package". The best part is that I don't have to spend hours putting in new paper plates, and removing the old ones. I've always hated that process. Bob, is that correct that you are buying your updates from Garmin, and not Jeppesen?

 

I have found that calling the sales department at Jeppesen is helpful, as they have always come up with something better than I calculate from their catalog.  You can unbundle the updates, and chose which ones you want for what box. In my prior setup, adding data for the GTN 650 was about $350.00, not the $500.00 as suggested above. 

Bennett, yes I went with Garmin including their FliteCharts instead of Jepp. even though I used Jepp paper plates for  many years and prefer their layout. In order to get Jepp plates for the 750 I would have had to buy "Chartview" to use the Jepp charts which are more expensive than the Garmin.

Garmin PilotPak plus Flitecharts Including NavData, Obstacles, SafeTaxi, Terrain, Airport Directory, FliteCharts, and Frequency databases for the 750 cost $937..

The "Americas" bundle for the 696 Including NavData, Obstacles, FliteCharts, SafeTaxi, Airport Directory, and Terrain databases.costs $499.99.

 

Garmin has a "lite" version for each device that does not include NavData and sells for $450 and $50 respectively.

 

https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/pilotpak/

[Bob_Belville]

Caution, some of these features, and I've forgotten what part(s), probably FliteDat, Charts?, for the 750 may go away after it has been out of date for too many months.

[Bennett]

As much as I grouse about Jeppesen pricing for updates to the GTN and Aera units, I used to pay even more for the old Bendix/King KNS 80 and LORAN updates, plus spending a small fortune for Jeppesen plates (Q) series.and charts. A flight from CA To the Caribbean could use 4 or 5 heavy Jepp binders. Not the "good ole days". Easy to forget what a pain they were. A big thank you to ForeFlight for so much functionality for so little cost.

[Bob_Belville]

As much as I grouse about Jeppesen pricing for updates to the GTN and Aera units, I used to pay even more for the old Bendix/King KNS 80 and LORAN updates, plus spending a small fortune for Jeppesen plates (Q) series.and charts. A flight from CA To the Caribbean could use 4 or 5 heavy Jepp binders. Not the "good ole days". Easy to forget what a pain they were. A big thank you to ForeFlight for so much functionality for so little cost.

I paid my pre teen daughter to file the Jepp chart updates in four 2" leather binders for Eastern US. She made $5 a packet, however many pages that was bi-weekly. 30 years ago. No one misses that system. 

[Marauder]

As much as I grouse about Jeppesen pricing for updates to the GTN and Aera units, I used to pay even more for the old Bendix/King KNS 80 and LORAN updates, plus spending a small fortune for Jeppesen plates (Q) series.and charts. A flight from CA To the Caribbean could use 4 or 5 heavy Jepp binders. Not the "good ole days". Easy to forget what a pain they were. A big thank you to ForeFlight for so much functionality for so little cost. I paid my pre teen daughter to file the Jepp chart updates in four 2" leather binders for Eastern US. She made $5 a packet, however many pages that was bi-weekly. 30 years ago. No one misses that system.

I did the updates the old fashioned way -- with a cold six pack.

[Marauder]

As much as I grouse about Jeppesen pricing for updates to the GTN and Aera units, I used to pay even more for the old Bendix/King KNS 80 and LORAN updates, plus spending a small fortune for Jeppesen plates (Q) series.and charts. A flight from CA To the Caribbean could use 4 or 5 heavy Jepp binders. Not the "good ole days". Easy to forget what a pain they were. A big thank you to ForeFlight for so much functionality for so little cost.

M above described pretty well what you need and what you don't need. I think you are like me Bennett and want all of the databases updated. I am currently on a Jepp subscription but found out that the off cycle stuff (the stuff that updates 56 day or other intervals) are not available for a second download from Jepp. I think it is a licensing thing. Jepp owns the Nav databases and pays Garmin for the Safe Taxi, obstacle and terrain (etc). So, if you have two SDs, you can update one and the other one will be offcycle. Another thing Garmin does is offer a single price (although a bit higher than Jepp) for updating all similar radios in the plane. So, I would imagine if you paid for a 750 pilot pack, you can download everything to the 650 except the approach charts. My subs come due in March and I will be looking at it pretty closely.

[Bennett]

Yes, I really do like databases updated as much as possible. I once landed at a non towered airport using the "old" frequency as shown on an outdated database, and had a big time hassle with a CFI who had also been in the pattern, but using the newly published frequency. It could have been dangerous, and it would have been my fault. Now I check frequencies carefully on two sources.

[Bob - S50]

Everyone has to evaluate what they want, what they need, and what they can afford when it comes to these (price gouging) updates. Not to hijack the thread too much, but when you look at these devices it's important to know what capability you get for your money.

Navdata. This is the important one. Keeping it updated and in cycle allows you to fly WAAS approaches legally. Updated navdata is not required to use your GPS in the enroute structure for IFR flight: you can use expired databases, so long as you verify that the points are still accurate. If you wish to shoot a GPS approach, you must have an updated nav database.

 

I agree with most of what you said but I'll stick my neck out and go one step further.  If you look in the AIM at table 1-1-6 on page 1-1-23, the table is titled, "GPS Approval Required/Authorized Use".  The 6th column is labeled IFR Approach and it lists note number 3 as a reference.  Below the table, note 3 says, "Requires current database or verification that the procedure has not been amended since the expiration of the database."  Note the word 'OR'.  To me that means I can fly the approach as long as I verify that the approach has not changed since my database expired.  To do that, I know our database expired on 9/19/2013.  If I look at an approach plate and the date says 'original' or the date is prior to 9/19, then it has not changed and my database should work.  I think I can legally fly that approach.  However, if the date says 9/19/2013 or later, I cannot fly the approach.  Similarly, for SID's and STAR's, I look at the sequence number.  Each time they make a change, they increase the sequence number by one.  If I see the Chins 7 for example and my database says Chins 7, I can use it.  If however, the STAR were the Glacier 4 and I only have the Glacier 3, then I could not use it.

 

Whether your plates have dates probably depends on where you get them.  If I look on AirNav.com and download a plate, it does not list the date on the plate.  If, however, I look at the plates I get from Naviator on my Android tablet, the plates do list a date on the bottom of the page.

 

Anybody read that differently?

 

That being my interpretation, we will probably wait until there are enough approaches we might want to use that we cannot legally fly.  We'll then pay for just the navdata update for a year and start over when the last update expires.  The reason we'll probably go for the full year is that a single update costs about half the cost of the full year.  For the small difference in price, might as well get the whole year.

 

Bob

[Marauder]

Everyone has to evaluate what they want, what they need, and what they can afford when it comes to these (price gouging) updates. Not to hijack the thread too much, but when you look at these devices it's important to know what capability you get for your money. Navdata. This is the important one. Keeping it updated and in cycle allows you to fly WAAS approaches legally. Updated navdata is not required to use your GPS in the enroute structure for IFR flight: you can use expired databases, so long as you verify that the points are still accurate. If you wish to shoot a GPS approach, you must have an updated nav database. I agree with most of what you said but I'll stick my neck out and go one step further. If you look in the AIM at table 1-1-6 on page 1-1-23, the table is titled, "GPS Approval Required/Authorized Use". The 6th column is labeled IFR Approach and it lists note number 3 as a reference. Below the table, note 3 says, "Requires current database or verification that the procedure has not been amended since the expiration of the database." Note the word 'OR'. To me that means I can fly the approach as long as I verify that the approach has not changed since my database expired. To do that, I know our database expired on 9/19/2013. If I look at an approach plate and the date says 'original' or the date is prior to 9/19, then it has not changed and my database should work. I think I can legally fly that approach. However, if the date says 9/19/2013 or later, I cannot fly the approach. Similarly, for SID's and STAR's, I look at the sequence number. Each time they make a change, they increase the sequence number by one. If I see the Chins 7 for example and my database says Chins 7, I can use it. If however, the STAR were the Glacier 4 and I only have the Glacier 3, then I could not use it. Whether your plates have dates probably depends on where you get them. If I look on AirNav.com and download a plate, it does not list the date on the plate. If, however, I look at the plates I get from Naviator on my Android tablet, the plates do list a date on the bottom of the page. Anybody read that differently? That being my interpretation, we will probably wait until there are enough approaches we might want to use that we cannot legally fly. We'll then pay for just the navdata update for a year and start over when the last update expires. The reason we'll probably go for the full year is that a single update costs about half the cost of the full year. For the small difference in price, might as well get the whole year. Bob

Nope -- you got it right. The only challenge is making sure you indeed have the current plate loaded in the navigator and if you don't, then you will need to deal with the changes while in flight. If you use automation during any of those approaches, like an autopilot, you will need make sure George knows this as well. He is going to use the information in the database. Where this becomes problematic is if you need to do something you didn't expect. Like realizing after a missed at your primary that you will need to verify the information for your alternate -- for all of the approaches that they may assign. After years of manually updating Jepp approach plate books like Bob mentions above, you realize there are a number of changes that occur on a regular basis. And for me, to manually verify this information every time is at a minimum a pain in the butt or in the worst case, dangerous if you missed something important (like a step down fix with a higher altitude because someone planted a windmill farm underneath the approach).

[Bob - S50]

And for me, to manually verify this information every time is at a minimum a pain in the butt or in the worst case, dangerous if you missed something important (like a step down fix with a higher altitude because someone planted a windmill farm underneath the approach).

 

True about the pain in the butt, but I DO fit the mold of the proverbial cheap pilot !!!

 

As for missing something, if the date on the plate is older than the database then there is nothing to miss.

 

As you mentioned though, it does take a little planning to look at other airports as alternates or along the way (if weather is bad) to make sure there are approaches you'll be able to fly.

 

Bob

[Bob - S50]

Nope -- you got it right. The only challenge is making sure you indeed have the current plate loaded in the navigator and if you don't, then you will need to deal with the changes while in flight. If you use automation during any of those approaches, like an autopilot, you will need make sure George knows this as well. He is going to use the information in the database. Where this becomes problematic is if you need to do something you didn't expect. Like realizing after a missed at your primary that you will need to verify the information for your alternate -- for all of the approaches that they may assign. After years of manually updating Jepp approach plate books like Bob mentions above, you realize there are a number of changes that occur on a regular basis. And for me, to manually verify this information every time is at a minimum a pain in the butt or in the worst case, dangerous if you missed something important (like a step down fix with a higher altitude because someone planted a windmill farm underneath the approach).

 

PLEASE READ THIS !!!

 

Actually I got it a little bit wrong.  When I look at the approach plate, this first place to look is the upper right corner of the plate just above the approach title.  You will most likely (but not always) see a 5 digit number such as 13290.  That number stands for the 290th day of 2013.  That would be about Oct 16, 2013.  That is the date the plate was last changed.  If there is no number there, THEN look at the bottom left corner and you'll probably see 'Orig-' and some letter telling you it is the original.  It will then be followed by either a date like 14Nov13 or another 5 digit number like 13290.  If I am going to fly with an out of date database then these numbers have to indicate a date prior to the expiration of my database.  The last cycle I have is for approaches modified on or before 13234.

 

Be careful out there!

[Marauder]

Nope -- you got it right. The only challenge is making sure you indeed have the current plate loaded in the navigator and if you don't, then you will need to deal with the changes while in flight. If you use automation during any of those approaches, like an autopilot, you will need make sure George knows this as well. He is going to use the information in the database. Where this becomes problematic is if you need to do something you didn't expect. Like realizing after a missed at your primary that you will need to verify the information for your alternate -- for all of the approaches that they may assign. After years of manually updating Jepp approach plate books like Bob mentions above, you realize there are a number of changes that occur on a regular basis. And for me, to manually verify this information every time is at a minimum a pain in the butt or in the worst case, dangerous if you missed something important (like a step down fix with a higher altitude because someone planted a windmill farm underneath the approach). PLEASE READ THIS !!! Actually I got it a little bit wrong. When I look at the approach plate, this first place to look is the upper right corner of the plate just above the approach title. You will most likely (but not always) see a 5 digit number such as 13290. That number stands for the 290th day of 2013. That would be Nov 14, 2013. That is the date the plate was last changed. If there is no number there, THEN look at the bottom left corner and you'll probably see 'Orig-' and some letter telling you it is the original. It will then be followed by either a date like 14Nov13 or another 5 digit number like 13290. If I am going to fly with an out of date database then these numbers have to indicate a date prior to the expiration of my database. The last cycle I have is for approaches modified on or before 13234. Be careful out there!

Too late Bob! They are all gone! Done in by flying outdated approach plates! Thanks for the correction. I'm still concerned about verifying the database information in the navigator. If there are changes and you are flying the approach with the AP, it becomes your responsibility to make sure George knows the difference. On my GTN I get the current cycle date as I power up. I also log the cycle change in a log book indicating that I am on the next cycle.

[Bob - S50]

Marauder,

 

That's always the safest thing to do.

 

During the last cycle there were numerous changes to airports in our area so we will most likely do an update soon too.

 

Bob

[Jsavage3]

I now have a GTN750 and the Aera-560 in my bird. I just got a quote from Garmin for the pilot pack of $1060 for a year's subscription. Wow! I guess I was thinking about the $75 annual subscription for Foreflight. Given my two gps's, is there a better plan that I should consider?

To avoid carrying sectional charts, what do I need to have subscription-wise for VFR-only flights? Foreflight only?

For IFR ops, then I need the full up pilot pack, right? Do I need the instrument appr plates (paper or electronic) in hand in addition to this pilot pack? In other words, pilot pack plus Foreflight or paper copies? If I have the updated plates and nav data in the 750, do I still need plates in my lap to be legal? Another way to skin this cat, wouldn't a current nav data base in the 750 and an I-pad (with a current subscription to Foreflight) in my lap also make me legal for IFR ops....to include LPV style RNAV approaches? This paragraph is a real headache to read...sorry.

[Super Dave]

I now have a GTN750 and the Aera-560 in my bird. I just got a quote from Garmin for the pilot pack of $1060 for a year's subscription. Wow! I guess I was thinking about the $75 annual subscription for Foreflight. Given my two gps's, is there a better plan that I should consider?

To avoid carrying sectional charts, what do I need to have subscription-wise for VFR-only flights? Foreflight only?

For IFR ops, then I need the full up pilot pack, right? Do I need the instrument appr plates (paper or electronic) in hand in addition to this pilot pack? In other words, pilot pack plus Foreflight or paper copies? If I have the updated plates and nav data in the 750, do I still need plates in my lap to be legal? Another way to skin this cat, wouldn't a current nav data base in the 750 and an I-pad (with a current subscription to Foreflight) in my lap also make me legal for IFR ops....to include LPV style RNAV approaches? This paragraph is a real headache to read...sorry.

The only part 91 requirements for carrying charts are for large and turbine powered multi engine aircraft. So, as strange as it may seem, there are no requirements to carry any charts in our Mooneys.

[Marauder]

I now have a GTN750 and the Aera-560 in my bird. I just got a quote from Garmin for the pilot pack of $1060 for a year's subscription. Wow! I guess I was thinking about the $75 annual subscription for Foreflight. Given my two gps's, is there a better plan that I should consider?

To avoid carrying sectional charts, what do I need to have subscription-wise for VFR-only flights? Foreflight only?

For IFR ops, then I need the full up pilot pack, right? Do I need the instrument appr plates (paper or electronic) in hand in addition to this pilot pack? In other words, pilot pack plus Foreflight or paper copies? If I have the updated plates and nav data in the 750, do I still need plates in my lap to be legal? Another way to skin this cat, wouldn't a current nav data base in the 750 and an I-pad (with a current subscription to Foreflight) in my lap also make me legal for IFR ops....to include LPV style RNAV approaches? This paragraph is a real headache to read...sorry.

The Pilot Pak contains more than is required for IFR. It comes with Safe Taxi, terrain, obstacle and the base map updates in additon to the Nav data. On the 750, you will also pay for the charts as part of the package. The Nav data is required for the unit to be IFR legal. The rest is not. The Nav data contains all of the updates for the enroute and approaches (including SIDS & STARS).

If you want the cheapest way to be legal, here is what I would do. Buy the $475/yr Nav data for the 750 or a Nav only Pilot Pak for the 750/Aera and buy the full package ForeFlight for your iPad. For the $150 per year you will get all sectionals, Safe Taxi, charts, Nav, terrain and obstacle updates. If you are a paranoid person (like me), but a second iPad and load your second free copy of ForeFlight on it.