Smroot Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 I'm a new member and a first time aircraft buyer. I had a look at a M20K today in CO that has me reeling. Of course I'll need a pre-buy inspection. Any recommendations? Arapaho Aero is the broker, is it wise to use their A/P for the inspection? It's due for an annual, is it unreasonable to ask for this to be done by the seller? Lastly, is Vref a reliable/accurate evaluation tool? Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwcolwell Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Bought my M20F and assisted on the annual in lieu of a pre-buy. Safety related expenses picked up by the previous owner. Maintenance expenses and cost of A/P split between us. Cost me approx. $900.00 foe the first annual/pre-buy. Plane was across the state and A/P was willing to work Saturday & Sunday with my help. Don't consider Vref an accurate measure of value. I poured over the trade mags for similar planes and took approximately 10% off the advertised prices. Then I compared specs, thus coming up with a value I thought was fair and marketable in case I needed to get out of the plane quick. A plane is like a long term investment. Buy what your happy with and keep it. Spend money on it when necessary. Spend money on it to make it better than when you purchased it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregwatts Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 In my opinion......... Vref .......overstates the value in many cases. It is very reasonable to have the aircraft delivered with a fresh annual.....by an agreed upon AI.....at seller's expense. Do not use the broker's A/P or AI for the pre-purchase inspection! There is a conflict of interest! An annual inspection is about the best prepurchase inspection you can get. Negotiate........!! My opinion only! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smroot Posted October 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Don't consider Vref an accurate measure of value. I poured over the trade mags for similar planes and took approximately 10% off the advertised prices. Then I compared specs, thus coming up with a value I thought was fair and marketable in case I needed to get out of the plane quick. A plane is like a long term investment. Buy what your happy with and keep it. Spend money on it when necessary. Spend money on it to make it better than when you purchased it. GWC, I agree with all, I just want an honest valuation. Are you saying most sellers are likely to ask about 10% over what they hope to get? Seems reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjkirsch Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 If it is N1005U, it looks really good. 530W, KFC150 with preselect, dual alternators and back up vacuum pump are all very desireable. Paint and interior also look good from the pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS1980 Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 I live in Centennial and have heard nothing but good things about Arapahoe Aero. Never used them but they seem to know a way around a Mooney better than most non MSCs. With that being said, go to Don Maxwell. Located at KGGG. Make it a condition of the prebuy. If the seller says no, walk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 For a very good comparison of equipment and price look here. One of our long time members just sold a his M20K 252 w/Encore conversion. http://mooneyspace.com/topic/8835-sold-252-encore-conversion-sold/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 Qualified PPI is best done independent of the owner and previous mechanic. This is for your financial protection. It is typical of machine sales in general, not just aviation... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 Qualified PPI is best done independent of the owner and previous mechanic. This is for your financial protection. It is typical of machine sales in general, not just aviation... Best regards, -a- Ditto that. I wouldn't trust a big purchase based solely upon an IA that you have a relationship with. He could be helping you out, an idiot or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manu damaschin Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 I'm a new member and a first time aircraft buyer. I had a look at a M20K today in CO that has me reeling. Of course I'll need a pre-buy inspection. Any recommendations? Arapaho Aero is the broker, is it wise to use their A/P for the inspection? It's due for an annual, is it unreasonable to ask for this to be done by the seller? Lastly, is Vref a reliable/accurate evaluation tool? Tim Do you have enough experience to operate a complex aircraft? M20K for the first bird could be challenging... On the other hand I used a third party mechanic for the pre buy. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisk Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 You should use a third party mechanic that knows Mooneys. Don Maxwell would be a good choice, as would Dugosh. Both are about the same distance, around a 4 hour flight. Offer to pay for the fuel, and possibly a safety pilot. It would be a good way to see if everything works on the plane and if there are any quirks. Either shop may be able to send a mechanic out for a PPI too. A short story I was looking to buy a 231 and found one at a shop that specializes in Mooneys. This particular plane had a recent prop strike and a tear down on the engine. In the inspection process, the owner had decided to replace a few cylinders. There were supposed to be 50 or so hours since the prop strike, and the plane had just gone through an annual at the service center which was brokering it. It was a great deal and I flew out to the service center to look at the plane. It was ok, so I had one of the other shops at that field look at it. --Well, two of the cylinders had exhaust valve leaks....and only an hour out of an annual. . In fairness, I don't think the broker knew there was an engine issue. I do think the shop was very sloppy with the annual, most likely because the plane had not flown more than 1 hour in the previous year. --After that, I walked away. So, I am very glad I did not have the brokers shop perform a PPI. I doubt they would have found the engine issue. And if the plane is due for an annual, I would certainly ask the seller to pay for it. Weather you buy the plane or not, it needs an annual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smroot Posted October 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 Do you have enough experience to operate a complex aircraft? M20K for the first bird could be challenging... On the other hand I used a third party mechanic for the pre buy. Good luck! Sounds like a 3rd party inspection is a must. I should have been a bit more clear using "Newbie" in this post. I'm new to aircraft ownership but have been flying on and off since 1975. I've never flown in the FLs. I'm not getting any younger and I'd like to be an owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJBrown Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 I have used Scott and Arapahoe Aero for 20 years. They are the best Mooney shop in the area. I would and did have him do the annuals and prebuys when I purchased both my planes. Being that you are almost local you might just use him for all your service. With the relationship I have had with him over the years I would still have him do the prebuy/annual if it were me. It is not like down in Texas where there are 3 or more shops I would trust to do a pre buy. Anyone else local just is not as qualified, they are the MSC for the area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Zuffoletto Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 I have used Scott and Arapahoe Aero for 20 years. They are the best Mooney shop in the area. I would and did have him do the annuals and prebuys when I purchased both my planes. Being that you are almost local you might just use him for all your service. With the relationship I have had with him over the years I would still have him do the prebuy/annual if it were me. It is not like down in Texas where there are 3 or more shops I would trust to do a pre buy. Anyone else local just is not as qualified, they are the MSC for the area. +1. Arapahoe Aero is not only a fantastic shop, but Scott Utz, the proprietor, is as straight a shooter as you'll find anywhere. I would have Scott do the pre-buy if it were me, but only because of our longstanding relationship and the trust he's earned from me. You don't have that experience so a third-party evaluation might be better for you. If you end up buying this plane, or any other, I highly recommend you have it serviced at AA. BTW, I don't think a K model is too much airplane for a first-time buyer. My first plane was an Archer II, but I only had it 8 months before I traded it for my K, which I owned and flew very successfully for 11 years. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJBrown Posted October 7, 2013 Report Share Posted October 7, 2013 N231NH, a K model, was my first plane. Bought 2 years after getting my PPL, I had 375 hours and had my IFR rating. I flew it for 1 year and 100 hours before converting it to a Rocket. I too would trust Scott with my life. Oh thats right I already do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smroot Posted October 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Don't know if anyone will see this as the post is stale but here goes... I'm now looking at a 252 in Washingon. Can anyone recommend a shop for a pre-buy near SEA? I did see a MSC in Portland, OR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Don't know if anyone will see this as the post is stale but here goes... I'm now looking at a 252 in Washingon. Can anyone recommend a shop for a pre-buy near SEA? I did see a MSC in Portland, OR. you may have better luck with a new post so the title is more relevant. anyway, this is a bump for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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