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  1. Thought this might spark some debate, I found this in the middle of a long thread on Beechtalk about the pros and cons of the TSIO vs TN. George Braly of Tornado Alley Turbo & GAMI fame had this to say about intercoolers. I was wondering how the 231 guys with intercoolers have anything to add, maybe someone with before and after install experience. Anyway here's what he said... For a year, I spent a good portion of my time re-engineering an intercooler installation and obtaining FAA approval for the changes. Very careful instrumentation and measurement. I have more recently done more of that with a different engine on the engine test stand (see www.engineteststand.com). I learned a lot. I am a strong supporter of intercoolers, so some of what I am going to say may sound strange at first. So, here goes: Frankly most of the conventional wisdom on this subject - - like a lot of the now famous LOP/ROP discussions - - is simply not true. The practical application results in an outcome that is rather different than everybody anticipates. It is largely a myth that 30" of MP AFTER the intercooler gets you more HP than 30" of MP BEFORE adding the intercooler. In fact, a poorly executed intercooler installation can - - and often does -- result in LESS horsepower at sea level than the same engine without the intercooler. I don't know who started the whole theory of de-rating an engine after an intercooler, but it sure as the devil was not somebody who was measuring the actual engine torque - accurately - - rather, they were just following the theory as you outlined it and making the calculations, etc. (And, yes, I have heard a story about one after market intercooler outfit that claims to have put a torque meter on before issuing the reduced MP instructions based on that result... but until I see the data, I will have a very hard time with that notion.) The big problem is that in the euphoria over the large and very beneficial drop in Induction Air Temperatures (IAT) that one gets with an intercooler, the "engineers" forget all about something else: How much of the "good stuff" (ie, good, cold, high density air) you can get into the cylinder on each intake stroke - - also depends on how much of the BAD STUFF (ie, exhaust products) you got out of the cylinder on the previous exhaust stroke. The ratio of the new "good stuff" to the theoretical maximum "good stuff" is called the cylinder volumetric efficiency Ve. Normally aspirated engine values are up around 85 to 92% of the cylinder's displacement - - although with turbocharged engines, the number will substantially exceed 100%. When you add an intercooler to a turbocharged engine - - and leave the MP constant - -, you place a restriction in the intake plumbing. That means that the compressor discharge pressure is now two or three (or 4 or 5 or 6 in one case) inches of Hg higher than the wide open throttle MP!!! In order to generate that extra pressure, the compressor has to work harder. And that means that the turbo has to work harder. And that means that the wastegate is closed a bit more. And THAT means the exhaust back pressure increases and that reduces the cylinder volumetric efficiency. Result? The improved number of molecules you get into the cylinder due to the denser air is just about perfectly offset by the reduced Ve. Thus, no net increase in useful airflow through the cylinder. And the result of that is no net increase in horsepower at the same MP. Now... having said THAT - - in my view, it is almost criminal for anybody to operate a turbocharged engine without an intercooler. There are excellent old SAE research papers that show a HUGE improvement in the detonation tolerance of these engines by use of even a modestly efficient intercooler. These improvements are not trivial. They are substantial. Installing an intercooler means that you are very very much less likely to inadvertently cause detonation during a moment of inattention during a busy high power climb in an IFR environment - - when you accidentally fail to have the mixture rich enough. Lots of other benefits. For the same reasons, it lowers peak cylinder pressures substantially and that seriously promotes reduced exhaust valve temperatures and greater valve and cylinder longevity. Last, and this is something almost nobody appreciates, adding an intercooler results in much better fuel atomization by your fuel injectors during high power operation. Like I said, the "conventional" wisdom on this subject is seriously flawed. The benefits of intercoolers are sort of over promoted for the wrong reasons and vastly under promoted for the right reasons all at the same time. They are generally a good investment. Regards, George Braly - Tornado Alley Turbo & GAMI
  2. Are there any Mooney owners around SLC that would be willing to help me convince my wife that this is the right airplane for us? I'm looking for someone that wouldn't mind giving us a ride along and generally discussing the airplane. Thanks,
  3. Wanted: M20K Encore or 252 Wish-list: FIKI TKS, G500 or Aspen PFD, WAAS capabilities, nice Engine Monitor, Flown and Well-maintained Hopefully you're for sale out there! Was going to go with the 231, and found a great plane, but I ski, bike, and load gear. Fold down/removable seats are a must. Plus, FIKI is not an option in that plane. If I can't find soon, plane partner wants to pull the trigger on a Bo.
  4. I fly a M20K 231 with Merlyn intercooler and wastegate making it fly like a 252. We recently had an engine overhaul that caused the TIT to run considerably hotter than on our "old" engine. The "new" engine is in fact the same core, just overhauled to new specifications. The temperature probes are the same as well, so they may be inaccurate, but they should be measuring the relative temperature differences correctly. We had a Mooney Service Center set the fuel flow system at the high and low end per the Continental Service Instruction. This supposedly is very important because an out of whack setup could create many problems. At full power on takeoff (36 inches due to the intercooler), we are seeing 22 gph. That is about 2-4 gph lower than before the overhaul. In cruise (28 inches, 2500 rpm, mixture full rich) we get 15 gph, about 1 gph more than on the old engine. The really concerning thing though is that with the mixture full rich, we see TIT temperatures between 1520 and 1560. We have no ability to decrease that temperature by running significantly rich of peak. On the previous engine with what was probably a poor fuel flow setup, we could cool the TIT to less than 1480 degrees by enrichening the mixture. So my question to the community is 1) should we be concerned with flying the airplane in cruise at 1560 TIT, and 2) should we be concerned that we don't have any "mixture authority" at normal cruise conditions in case CHTs start rising or something like that. The STC that added the intercooler was approved without any change to the performance charts, so we don't know exactly what fuel flow would be expected with certain power settings. If anyone has a copy of a 252 power chart, it would be most appreciated. Thank you.
  5. All, I am currently ready to cross over from the renters world to ownership. I was going to buy a Cessna TR182RG until I came across a beautiful Mooney on Controller. I don't know much about Mooney's, except they are efficient and fast. The Mooney that I am looking at (http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-231/1980-MOONEY-M20K-231/1300287.htm) has a TSIO-360-GB engine. My questions are as follows: 1) Can this GB engine be converted to an LB engine? Or a MB/SB engine for that matter? 2) If it can, could I keep the intercooler, Merlyn waste gate, and GAMI injectors? 3) What do overhauls for these engine types typically cost? 4) Can you fit skis (170cm) in the M20K? 5) The owner of this Mooney guarantees 170 knots above 15,000 with a fuel burn of 9.5 to 9.8 gph. Does this sound realistic to everyone? 6) How does the deal itself look to everyone? Again, I am new to Mooney's. I was going to go with Cessna, but I am starting to shy away due to the operating costs. Thank you in advantage for your expertise and I look forward to hearing back!
  6. Tthe left brake pedal in my 231 lost all hydraulic fluid. There was evidence that fluid had leaked past the piston o-ring in the brake assy. I am replacing the o-ring and I am back bleeding the brake system through wheel cylinder bleeder valves using pressure pot. Using this method is there a need for pumping the brake pedals? Service manual states that the brake pedal should be "pulled back" (section 12-20-05). Any helpful suggestions out there from folks that have experience with brake bleeding mooneys. Does raising nose wheel off the ground help? What will be indication that the master cylinder needs servicing? Thanking you in advance for your help. peter lamberty N322DB
  7. Does anyone have any tips for removing the alternator on a 231 (-LB)? The SMM says: NOTE The main alternator is very difficult to remove. The lower engine firewall mount bolts may require loosening,the upper bolts may require removal and the engine pivoted around the lower attach points. I would really prefer not to have to do that.
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