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Great summary Mike! This would be another important calculation for flying in the clouds… The battery(s) has to support the panel long enough to get back on the ground (or back into VMC) after an alternator failure… it really helps to have digital electronics in the panel… for their lower amperage requirement…. And larger battery capacity… for more electrons to use. we don’t usually have a ton of excess electrical power to support ancient avionics… So cutting battery capacity in half would be going the wrong direction…. Best regards, -a-

Side note: (lead observation) My O360 was a lead pellet manufacturing system… for my first year of ownership… somewhere near Y2K… No engine monitor, no Fuel Flow sensor… minimal instrumentation… (low pilot time) Aggressive ground leaning was the method to minimize the lead balls that would collect in the lower spark plugs… Good luck Gevertex! Nice pics and descriptions! Best regards, -a-

The hard part about using a V-band clamp with no written history… How many torques does it really have? What happens when it has too many? The known part… Bravos have experienced V-band clamp failures… Leaking like a blow torch under the cowling… That part of the exhaust system is under the most stress, highest temps, and greatest pressures… a tough place to be for a clamp… Always use a CO monitor… it can help identify an exhaust leak near its beginning… @mike_elliott is my go to guy for details on V-Band clamps… he has the experience of their weaknesses… PP thoughts only… not a mechanic. Best regards, -a-

MD may be a bit far…? https://flyrpm.com Byron aka JetDriven is a great mechanic and M20J owner and… commercial pilot. When you see his plane, or read some of his posts… it makes an easy decision… Byron helped me transition back into flying my M20R, a lot of years ago… Best regards, -a-

This is the tough part about technical writing… The above posts are actually quite positive… relaying some challenges that may be found along the way… and methods to avoid those challenges… All are an attempt to help out the OP… oddly, it may not seem that way. Without knowing very much about the OP… Like where in the Mooney World is he? Wanna see a Mooney up close? Is he anywhere near TX? AAA is a great place to see and feel Mooneys up close. I updated my diatribe above a couple of times… trying to soften the negativity, without being full blown Mooniac crazy… Best regards, -a-

come onnnn…. big Daddy! What are you hoping to get out of the new tech battey? Even if the battery is light years above current gel technology… and it may be… Does it prefer an optimized charging system for best performance? Challenge1… If I put the light weighted battery… in the same place as my original battery(s)… I get to add lead weights in the tail cone to keep my WnB correct… Fortunately for me… I would have options like… add A/C, or a Fiki system that weigh a similar amount in that space… instead of lead. Sooooo… if all you are looking for is the weight savings…. The challenge just got a little bigger… Fortunately for you… The M20K has all kinds of opportunity to move weight around… Sooo many ancient avionics that weigh a ton… Two batteries in the tail cone that can be swapped out… Lots of wire in between… There might be an opportunity for 100LBs of UL to be re-captured… How are your WnB calculating skills? Are you updating the panel any? Tossing out a vac system, or two? Do you have the old weather radar in the wing? 100 AMUs later… the most expensive battery swap ever… PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… My dream long body… will have AC, O2, and Fiki… and a very tiny Charlie weight for WnB perfection. And lots of touch screens… Best regards, -a-

bummer… Lasar was the king of rebuilding/updating nose gear… See if they have recovered from their move… it’s been a year or two…. Then there is the list of pre-flowned parts guys… starting with Alan… Best regards, -a-

The medical is key… study the questions… know the answers… Don’t guess… There are proper ways to navigate through the mine field… Even for those with challenges of heart issues, various medicines, or missing an eyeball… Somebody around here will be familiar with that challenge… AOPA is also a nice resource for this… Good luck! Best regards, -a-

Welcome aboard Dtips! 1) You have come to the right place… to learn about what you are trying to accomplish… 2) If you have a ton of dough… train in your Mooney. 3) Short on dough…? Training in your Mooney, isn’t usually the best route… until you are going after your instrument rating… IR. 4) Finding the right Mooney for you… will probably fit somewhere between M20A and M20V…. depending on how selective you are… may take a year to find and acquire the right one nicely dressed…, get started! 5) If you aren’t a mechanic… avoid the lower cost levels of any model…. The work involved to bring a worn out plane up to nice and safe… is prohibitively expensive… 6) planes have four costs… that can be added up. Airframe, engine, instrument panel, paint and interior… 7) if you want to be scared… look up the price to overhaul things to brand new condition… in the end, you end up with a brand new plane… with today’s cost, and 1970s vintage… 8) If you want to feel wealthy… look up what it costs to overhaul a brand P’s engine… IO720… 9) For the most part… searching for a first Mooney… there is a bit of a sweet spot in the alphabet… 10) Expect all Mooneys to have exactly four seats… some have a bit more leg room than the others… 11) Expect 98% of all Mooneys to have retractable gear and controllable pitch prop. Essential bits of a fast efficient plane… 12) Entry level Mooneys come with two Lycoming engine choices… O360, and IO360… 13) O360s are carbureted and 180hp… IO360s use fuel injection and other details to get to 200hp… the extra 10% hp is actually meaningful for many. 14) The sweet spot… M20C to M20J. Easy, natural, step-up from the trainer… your insurance provider will define transition training for you… often 10 - 20 hours before solo flight and then taking passengers… 15) The C, has the O360, it is a short body Mooney… makes a great plane for a family of four… until the kids grow to full size. 16) The E, like the M20C, has the IO360… preferred by the retired crowd… perfect plane for two people, with room to take four, on short hops… 17) The F, like the M20E, with more room in the back… preferred by Money makers that sit in the back… 18) The G, an oddity, it is the mid body Mooney like the F, but sports the M20C’s carbureted engine… aka the turtle of the Mooney crowd… 19) Next step up…. The Modern Mooneys… starting with the M20J… Mooney got out the aerodynamics book, and fiberglass… and modernized the M20F… and called it the M20J. 20) So start looking for what plane fits your desires and needs… and start building your list of needs… Controller seems to be a nice place to find Mooneys…. use caution… if looking at mid level M20Cs, and you see an M20F at the same price… there is probably a reason for that pricing oddity… dig deeper to figure out why it is priced so low… something may be damaged or worn out… Buying a plane… There is something called a pre-purchase inspection… PPI… it is imperfectly, the best protection for your wallet… There are no bad Mooney models… but, old machines have a tendency to need proper care over time… all planes need proper care, not just Mooneys… My first Mooney… M20C. I found MS while looking for my next Mooney… M20J / Missile… My second Mooney turned out to be an M20R… aka Standing Ovation… I got my IR… between ownership of the two planes… in 2008. It’s been a while. Nothing cooler than waking up in the morning… checking the weather… and have the grandkids visit their grandparents hundreds of miles away…and be back later in the day… or three days later… depending on how you feel. Life is short… Fly Fast! Go Mooney! You can do it! PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy… Best regards, -a-

Hi everyone! Some notes on our speed brakes… 1) When you use them… you are giving up some of that efficiency that some Mooniacs crave. 2) they disrupt the airflow about 3X the width of the brakes themselves… deploy in the rain for a visual confirmation. 3) essentially they are a wing shortner…. soooo expect a small increase of AOA required to maintain level flight once deployed… SB magic… 4) These devices are speed dependent… 5) at Vne, they have a tremendous effect… 6) For emergency descent, gear down, power out, prop pushed in… combined with the brakes… you will be landing in less than three minutes, no matter what Mooney you fly… a 6k’pm descent… 7) at traffic pattern speeds… they can help reduce airspeed a little, due to the short wing effect and increased AOA…. Similar to pushing the prop all the way in… the down shift maneuver. 8) at landing speed… you are going to need a CloudAhoy app connected to your WAAS device to see the data…. It isn’t something you can feel.. unless your calibrated seat pants are that good. 9) all of this magic come from the placement of where the brakes are on the cord of the wing… if they were closer to the leading edge, they would be more disruptive at slower speeds… further back, they would be lost in the airflow disruption that is already going on… 10) since airspeed2 is the driving force for this drag… the speed brake effectiveness is more obvious near Vne… and still plenty obvious at Vlo other notes… 11) all Long bodies have Speed brakes, as a replacement for full flap slips at low-ish speeds… where the flaps have a tendency to blanket airflow over the horizontal stabilizer… 12) Soooo… they still work at slow speeds, just not as much as they do at gear down speed…. 13) Landing with a vertical descent of 6k’pm would be considered slightly unstable by most Mooney pilots…. Unless your traffic pattern was 6k’ agl… Oddly… 14) flaps are not deployed for emergency descents in Long bodies… 15) The descent rate, at gear down speed is better, than slowing down to Vfe…. 16) The procedure includes slowing to extend the gear, then speeding up to enjoy the additionally braking at gear extended speed…. 17) Emergency descents are a blast… they aren’t very good for the health of the plane, or the people riding inside…. Or the efficiency of the flight… 18) Since we are on the ground at 60+kias… with an AOA, mandated by the gear geometry, high enough to take off… hitting the brakes above 50kias is sure to skid both tires… 19) It is likely… that deploying the speed brakes will improve the transfer of weight from the wings to the wheels… slightly, not magically… 20) adding the extra detail to a landing procedure… won’t make any friends after the ensuing distraction / gear up discussion… PP thoughts only not a CfI… my speed brakes get their most use BEFORE each flight… check list item… Best regards, -a-

Time for Sue to get to the States! Best regards, -a-

From a 2017 thread… Over the Moon has been racing a while… Registration shows Quakertown, PA. Pilot/copilot names sound familiar… Go Becca! Best regards, -a-

That’s a lot of Mooney, for not that much Money… Can I get a price check on aisle M20M…? That is a beautiful turbo Long Body! Good luck with the sale… Now, Set the timers… see how long this takes. Best regards, -a-

Hey all! This is one of my favorite discussions… Stay focussed… 1) Focus on determining which M20 is right for me… A, or V, or something in between…. 2) Focus on finishing the PPL… then focus on the next steps… IR, seaplane, glider rating, tail wheel endorsement…. 3) Focus on finding a place to keep her… even if it is a tie down in NJ… 4) My M20C lived outdoors her entire life… she looked worn before I got her. A good cover, and a good cleaning and wax are helpful… 5) My M20R lived outdoors for a year… a near perfect paint job, doesn’t stay that way living outdoors…. 6) If you have aviation experience… family members count. You can probably determine the best plane for you… 7) If you have no aviation experience, and an M20V sounds about right…. There is a lot of work to get done… 8) Some people fly a trainer for the first hundred or so hours… 9) Others buy a Mooney and train in it… too much focus required. 10) Often finding the right Mooney can take a year…. So stay focussed! 11) Renting a plane has its benefits… until you own one. 12) Tying down outside has its benefits… until you have a hangar. 13) Keeping your plane in hangar is pretty cool… until you own your own hangar. 14) Owning your own hangar has its benefits… until you have your own hangar home…. Soooo…. With all that out in the open… Natural Mooney pilots are good at multi-tasking and staying focussed on everything all the time… Keep moving all the balls forwards… keep asking questions… find a mentor. When buying a plane… know what a PPI is… decide how to use one, who is going to do it, how much you want to spend… there are plenty of discussions around here for all of that… Enjoy the hunt! Go Mooney! PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy…. Best regards, -a-

100LL central Jersey… 5.35 Cars… 2.95 inflation beating territory… -a-

I nice rough way to measure performance against book numbers… 1) use a long runway… 2) Use CoudAhoy app.. 3) supply CloudAhoy with WAAS data. it is better to have a bad instrument and have good power….. than have a good instrument reading, and have bad power…. getting a modern tach is relatively low dollar upgrade, if able…

Scary way to look at the same challenge… (purely hypothetical situation) Same plane, and runway… and we’re bringing the family along.. for some reason, my engine is only 10% off its max hp that day…. What could possibly happen? T/O distance is 1200’ instead of 800’…. A huge 50% increase! What if I load the plane up to MGTW? It’s hot out, whole family is heading to the beach…? The whole runway is getting shorter, and the 50/70 rule is jamming up in the brain…. Stopping distance is getting tiny. expect rpm being off by 100… important if the engine is not set up correctly… less important if the tach has aged, and data is false. mechanical tachs, with the speedometer cable… can get a nice accuracy improvement with a new cable… PP thoughts only… Best regards, -a-

An example where the importance of RPM is shown… My favorite airport, 2k’ long runway… O3 power… off the ground before the halfway point. If not, stop! O1 power… trees start getting bigger in the windshield before being off the ground. Stopping distance is getting really small… Economically… the 200rpm cost something like 20amu back in the day… prop, STC, and install… If your gov is set too low, and you are missing 100rpm… about 5%hp. Get with your favorite mechanic for a low cost power boost. Instrument and power accuracy are important on short fields. PP thoughts only… Best regards, -a-

bust out the smart phone app, and audibly determine actual rpm! know if your engine has been set-up using the ship’s tach, or something more reliable… accuracy at the high end is important for T/O power… accuracy at the low end is important for landing distance… If you fly by the book numbers… the instruments need to be accurate to get book numbers… New EI tach and MP gauges to match the new engine is a great idea…! Briefly… I have studied the rpm discussion pretty closely a decade ago… when going from O1 to O3 power… RPM 1: 2500, 280hp, 25gph, T/O length 1200’…. IO550(g), stock Macaulay RPM 2: 2700, 310hp, 28gph, T/O 800’… IO550(n), Acclaim TopProp For comparison, I also collected data riding in @Cris’s Screamin’ Eagle. I wasn’t going to pay for the O3 power, if I couldn’t measure it to know it was real… Distance measured using WAAS gps for accuracy. CloudAhoy app. 10% more horsepower…. 1/3 less runway used…!!! keep in mind…. These rough numbers don’t account for the big improvement in ‘excess power’ that is used for acceleration, T/O distance, and climb rate…. For max T/O distance… you wouldn’t want to be 100 rpm low. For engine reliability/wear… you wouldn’t want to be 100rpm high. It is good to calibrate your tach. At least know how far off it is using an rpm app. Checklist items… MP RPM FF If all three meet your spec., you are developing full HP! GO! There may also be a seat of the pants difference with all of the horses running… depending on your seat’s sensitivity. PP thoughts only, -a-

Let’s see if I can add something without adding a mistake…. 1) The big pull… a step used for people using a turbo charger… where leaning slowly can leave the turbo running at incredibly high temps for longer than necessary… 2) the big pull for a NA engine… will get you in the window of the final setting quicker… which is OK too… 3) peak occurs in a slightly different place depending on a bunch of variables… but, on that one current flight…. You set your MP, and RPM and then lean as slowly as you are comfortable… wait for the EGTs to respond, lean again… wait again, lean some more… if you over shoot… Enrichen slowly… wait longer… going up or down… the peak is in the same place. It will appear to move if you don’t wait long enough for the TCs to completely settle. 4) Some thermo couples react faster than others… see how long yours takes during the run-up… each time you click a mag off and on… 5) Expect if you are hunting up and down with the mixture knob, and can’t figure out why the EGT doesn’t settle smoothly in the same place… even fast EGT sensors take about 15 seconds to settle on the final value… 6) I like being at 10k’ for leaning experiments… or setting the MP at 20”… 7) Running at peak… or a few degrees LOP guaranties that all of the Dino juice has been converted to noise, while producing maximum power for speed… with an MP that is safe, and CHTs below 380°F…. 8) Near impossible to set %bhp with an MP gauge that isn’t working properly…. But, at 10k’, running wide open throttle (WOT)… you can’t hurt the engine while experimenting with your leaning procedure… 9) It is also important to have your CHTs reading properly… this way you will know that your cylinder cooling is getting done as expected… Message for my friend @Danb… the %hp calculation always uses the Compression Ratio (CR)… the TN’d IO550 is a lower compression than the NA engines, but not as low as the typical TC’d engines… the POH will have the CR for the engine listed shouldn’t be too hard to find… PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… or CFI… or instrument guru… Best regards, -a-

Hey Ben! 20+ years of owning an M20C, wow! Congrats on your first MS post! Marketing thoughts… 1) Calling an M20C old… probably won’t help any… 2) Everyone knows how old all Mooneys are by their alphabet code… even M20Rs are old. 3) Upgrading to sell… houses, cars, planes… Unless you know the buyer… whatever colors or device you select, would the buyer want that? Can you get upgrades done at a lower cost than the buyer… 4) Buyers can have better skills at upgrading planes than you have… and can be driven away by what you select. 5) Price the plane appropriately to reflect its current status. A good idea. 6) Putting lipstick on it probably won’t make things better… addressing wear and tear items… A good idea. wash and wax, clean and ready the inside for sale… 7) Address any and all AW issues… these are the usual things that get in the way during a PPI… 8) Post pics, plane and car! 9) Start the search for a nice M20K! Don’t wait… which one interests you the most? 10) Got your IR? Do you like needles or color screens? Will you be flying solo or with family? Keep your eye on UL, Some M20Ks are fully loaded with stuff, for maximum travel! You have been approved to upgrade! I went from M20C to M20R… after a decade. The M20R is just like the M20C, just more Mooney! PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy… Best regards, -a-

Hey DC! I know we have discussed this topic a few times… Anyone can set up a poll… @201er is our most prolific pollster! See if you can get it figured out. If not, just start a thread and see how many people join the discussion… How much experience you had… What Mooney was the first… How long until you moved up to the next one, and which one was that… Two issues I wanted to have good experience with… before going 280hp… and a good review again when going 310hp… 1) Go arounds, with all of the trimming…. 2) Everything else… Go for it! Best regards, -a-

Hey Dennis, welcome aboard! @dennis78750 This question comes up several times each year… The answer is always… it depends…. 1) It takes a lot of dough… 2) It takes a lot of time… 3) It takes a lot of dedication… 4) Sure, if you have all of these… you can skip from the low powered machines to the full on high powered and turbo’d devices… 5) Most people with limited time or funds… do their training for the PPL in a simple trainer… and acquire about 100 hours before moving up to their first Mooney… if you accidentally bend a plane, do it to a rented mule. 6) Skipping a step means you are going to miss some valuable experience that you are going to want later anyways…. There is plenty of value to be found in getting to know various airplanes… the trainer is just one of them… the glider and the tail dragger are a couple of the others… a few MSers have some fun aerobatic experience as well… others have flown high powered helicopters… 7) Before getting the 100 hrs. in the trainer… be on the look out early, for which Mooney you want… and start the search… it can take nearly a year for everything to come together… 8) Often, people acquire an M20J… popular features and attributes, and flys quickly, and will give you the experience to move up… an M20E makes a fantastic retirement plane… 9) Moving up to things that have more than 250hp, or have a turbo… can get a low time pilot into dangerous situations…. 10) Sure, the airforce puts people into jets early on…. And the airforce takes care of the dough, time, and dedication part… 11) Transition training…. There are many CFIIs in various states around the country… that have Mooney experience. You want to learn every detail available about your bird… hiring the Mooney specific CFII is the right way to get that. 12) There is a consolidated list of Mooney CFIs around here… search on the word consolidated…. There is also a website where all of the Mooney CFIs are listed… an E-magazine for Mooney enthusiasts… 13) there isn’t anything hard or dangerous about flying a Mooney…. It is just amazing how dangerous you can be to yourself with powerful tools… 14) We have at least a few members that were successful learning to fly in a 280hp Mooney Acclaim…. They have jobs like race car driver, doctor/business magnate… and really know how to purchase the training they are looking for… about me… 100 hrs. In a C152, a few more in a C172, a couple more in a DA10… 1k hrs… in the best Mooney ever… M20C. a couple hundred more in an Ovation… the finest Mooney ever…. Not a doctor, or race car driver… and took a decade to get my IR. There are a few threads around here that list all of the Mooneys ever built… from A to V… I know I have made the list a couple of times… They all still fly. They all are still loved… Inflation has been tough on airplane prices… I hope your stack of dough has grown along with the economy. As you move up the skill tree… consider what else you would like to learn… On the East Coast, having an instrument rating is really helpful for flying away for a few days…. And not getting stuck due to weather… early on, be good at knowing the weather, and have the ability to make a U-turn out of the clouds… and don’t run out of gas! There is so much experience to be gained… different seasons, different weather, different areas of the country There are a few things to learn about purchasing a plane… lots of threads around here for that… it helps to know your experience regarding used machinery… what your budget is for things like a pre purchase inspection… the PPI is always interesting… it often matches the price of the plane you are looking to buy. They are always imperfect. Yet they are the best protection for your wallet. Mooney specific mechanics get mentioned a lot… Acquiring all the experience can be a lot of fun! You can do it! Enjoy the hunt! Best regards, -a-

Dear MS Friends and Family… Merry Christmas! and see you soon! Best regards, -a-

Echo, Keep in mind… When organizing the center stack… the depth at the top has the inverted Y tube back there… the audio panel traditionally goes in the top spot because it’s depth isn’t very long… Some radios are so long… they may bump into the inverted Y… Best regards, -a-