carusoam

Ken, you are more than qualified to select a GA plane that is right for you... The 201 is a great airplane! When comparing planes, there is a resource that lists and details many Mooneys... Click on their inventory button... https://www.allamericanaircraft.com/default.htm Fun times ahead... The first year of ownership comes with a higher insurance cost... a year experience, some training and an IR usually get the price as low as possible... Mooneys aren't very expensive to insure compared to other high performance planes... look forward to the second year of ownership... Best regards, -a-

So I looked up on Snopes... but nothing found... Wiki offers some insight... but I stopped reading after a while... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_cooling Sounds like use proper cooling techniques... is better than... avoid shock cooling. Best regards, -a-

@Danb , Sounds like the master relay is stuck in the on position... Find relay by the battery, tap on it... See if it releases? Or wait for a mechanic to give better advice. Relays have a tendency to fail with age and hours... it might be time to swap in some new master and avionics relays(?) PP thoughts only... Best regards, -a-

Shock heating, and cooling, as far as the discussion goes... is hidden in related rates of expansion... 1) We assume that the outer surfaces of the engine are expanding faster than the inner surfaces and the engines are lasting beyond the first take off... 2) This sets us up for the fear that it works with heating, then, it can’t possibly work with cooling.... 3) Somebody at the engine company has figured this out. And has developed things like piston rings and the channels they seat in... 4) Break-in procedures and the best oils to be used... 5) this includes all the different materials, steel, aluminum, and whatever rings are made of... 6) Each time you hear our engines have magnetos, they must be 1930s technology... it isn’t quite true... 7) our magnetos have a nylon gear inside them, that polymer and it’s molding technology didn’t commercially exist until the 60’s... 8) our engines are more advanced then they get credit for... 9) If our engines get electronic mags mounted on them... does that make the engine 1990’s technology...? 10) proper temp control, is a great solution to many challenges... make sure the seals and airflow are all working properly... Fear of not getting proper cooling, is more productive than fear of shock cooling... Pp thoughts only, -a-

So... who is pulling the throttle out to descend? I believe we have three choices in general... 1) long slow descent rate, maximizing recovery of energy used in the climb... only pulling the throttle. Back enough to avoid Vne and Va... 2) Constant air speed speed descent, pulling throttle to descend... helpful for more precise control of the airplane on an IFR flight plan... 3) E-descent, not too worried about cylinder longevity during this time... Even the ancient texts spend a lot of words on the don’t pull the throttle and descend like crazy.... and they will also mention don’t let the prop drive the engine... and for a really fun quote from a guy at Continental... there are always discussions regarding cooling turbos... Find the video posted by Kristoffer recently... It is good to control engine wear using logic, science, engineering, and experience... A single example... If shock cooling occurs at 50°F/min.... let’s avoid it. In cruise, my cylinders are stable at 380°F The lowest CHTs I see in the summer are around 320°F, winter may be around 280°F... My descents are typically 400fpm from around 10k’ that allows for 20 minutes of descent... The cooling of 60°F is pretty spread out over a long period of time... more air forced through the cowl as the nose points downhill, not very shocking... less fuel burned as the MP is lessened, every 1k’ or so, still spreads the cooling change out over two minutes... realistically pulling the 1” of MP out, happens because the MP crept up 1” with the decrease in altitude... Overall my operational temp spread is about 100°F. Getting it to change quickly is hard to do... if it seems to change quickly, I am probably just cooling off the Temp instruments, much faster than the engine or cylinders... We typically measure the outside surface of the cylinder heads... what we would really like to know is what is going on at the inside surface of the cylinder... on the topic of experience... some cylinder designs are better known for cracking... compared to others... this is where we get help (or disappointment) from other MSers... IO550 (g) cylinders can go 2000 hours... IO550(n) cylinders are lighter weight with modern cooling fin arrangements... unfortunately the (n) cylinders are reported to crack more often... Hopefully, the (n) cylinder challenge is more related to the brand Ci they are mounted on and not the O that I am most concerned with... There are only so many things we can be concerned with at any one time.... pick your poison. PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or CFI... Best regards, -a-

Consider signing up for some Transition Training... Cruise.... 1) ROP Or LOP? 2) 65%bhp or more? 3) TopProp 2550rpm? 4) Climbing... lots of power and FF for cooling... Some hours of dual with a pilot that knows Acclaims has got to be the best money ever spent.... the Kerville area is a hot spot for these guys... One way this can be done on a budget... attend a MAPA Training weekend... you can get an Acclaim specific pilot to review the specific operations... there are a couple of these guys on this board... and a list published by area of the country around here somewhere... PP thoughts only, I did TT when going between Mooney Models... to minimize simple mistakes, and shorten the learning curve. Best regards, -a-

Maybe MSers can call it a debunked OWT... we mostly fly in a machine friendly manner As our fine MSer from the south west has mentioned.... nothing cools hot metal faster than getting splashed with water... Cruising along at altitude, in IMC, you happen upon a rain shaft... you hear the water boiling and you see steam coming out of the cowl... Even using a JPI to alarm when the cooling rate is exceeded is a bit mythical... it is only reporting a single point on the cylinder head... Training all day in the traffic pattern, WOT, to gliding on final, time after time.... If this were a really serious challenge... heads would be falling off at high rates... Full power ascents from negative DAs are probably a much larger concern... for their high ICPs... I amended these ideas into the list I compiled above... I think the OWT was first started by one Charles Taylor.... trying to simplify engine management for a couple of bike builders... Science doesn’t cover heat transfer through various layers of metals and the associated boundary layers on both sides of each layer... that is an engineering class call heat transfer.... a pretty well known topic that cylinder designers and manufacturers would be very familiar with... Be nice to your cylinders, control the CHTs... control the cooling rate after you have all the other important things related to the safety of flight down.... In this discussion, the proper descent was being inhibited by less important topics... Best regards, -a-

1) Transition Training is really good at covering several methods of descent... 2) Some things from TT May get lost after a few deep sleeps... 3) Something that helps mathematically... know when to start descent.... at 120kts you are covering 2nm per minute, 180kts is 3nm per minute... 4) Descent In smooth air, Vne is a good thing to keep an eye on... in bumpy air, or prior to bumpy air, maneuvering speed must be known... slow to maneuvering speed before the bumps start... 5) Do the math... during the flight planning... if TPA is 1k’ and cruise is at 6k’, you have 5k’ to lose... know how many minutes that is for a 500fpm, 400fpm, 300fpm descent... 6) There are a few ways to descend... VFR, usually uses an efficient descent, where WOT and forward speed is preferred... more than 400fpm and WOT probably busts some speed limits... Vne, Vna, Vfe, Vno...... 7) complexity comes in as speed increases with power increasing through the descent... taking out an inch of MP for each 1k’ of altitude lost... 8) Another descent... constant speed, adjusting MP to set the descent rate... 1” of MP for each 100fpm you want, -5” of mp yields about a 500fpm descent.... but who wants to pull the throttle while trying to get somewhere? 9) the goal.... don’t come into the traffic pattern at cruise speed.... slowing down can easily take two extra nm.... 10) Automation... Some Garmin portable devices have the skill... similar to the more expensive panel mount devices... you can enter rates of descent and distance from the airport for the descent target... the portable will show an ILS like bar... the line first appears at the top of the instrument and descends as you near the calculated TOD... begin the descent to match the fpm you selected.... the line is only a guide... (don’t follow it) 11) emergency descent... (typical) extend speed brakes if available, aero drag throttle out, engine drag prop in, extreme engine drag Slow to gear extension speed, extend gear, lower the nose to gear extended speed... lots of drag at speed. Combining speed with aerodynamic drag... multiplies energy diffusion... big time. 12) expect to take a lot of notes while you try various rates, distance offsets and methods... See if you have multi-tasking limitations this is one of the places it can show up. It is related to ‘working memory’ how big and how many numbers you can work with while you are busy flying the plane... 13) This IS a lot to take in... it isn’t covered in primary flight training the way you need to know flying a Mooney at 12,500’... 14) Transition Training is the best way to get this... all of the hard work is presented in a more memorable way... 15) Experiments with a flight simulator is a great way to test your descent profiles... and thought processes. 16) Fly with another MSer... See the steps they take... I got to have Byron flying with me once... we were descending while traveling at about three miles per minute coming up on the TOD... I must have had the deer in the head lights look while trying to do the math at the same time... 17) notes... what is this shock cooling phenomena? If this is a serious concern... set your JPI up to alarm to avoid the occurrence... then do the calcs on hot days, the cold days, rainy days,then again with sleet and slush... Do the calcs for working in the pattern... shock cooling probably got called an OWT by two guys working in a bike shop in Dayton... Charles Taylor probably relayed the first discussion of shock cooling to protect his engine from the yahoo pilots.... This is a great discussion... for Mooney 101... Let me know if I missed anything or got something incorrect... PP thoughts only, not a CFI... mostly stuff I read in this thread... blended with time-distance calcultations in 2D, While given the time available in the third D... Best regards, -a-

Welcome aboard Capn’ That is a great explanation of the details... Thanks for sharing them. What plane are you flying in now? There is a thread around here about some hardware that recently became available to allow for hand control of rudder pedals... I hope you are staying around... I fell behind in some of my reading, wish I caught this earlier... Best regards, -a-

Welcome aboard Cosmo. If you have part numbers, that can be helpful. Got a pic of your updated switches? Best regards, -a-

97’s sealants were as modern as they get... If Alan’s bird needs a reseal, there are going to be a lot of disappointed people. I’ll keep my fingers crossed. Best regards, -a-

Finding somebody that can weld aluminum should be too hard... Just a PP thought... Best regards, -a-

@Kristoffer that is a great introduction to Continental tech people. They are great to work with... My Buddy Cris Gleason helped me with communications with the Continental people. He knew them pretty well after upgrading to a 310hp IO550for his Eagle... I just followed Cris’ lead... It is nice to meet Chuck Cook. I’ll look to find him over on that BT thingy... Which engines do you have in your bird? Is that a pair of TNIO550s? It is interesting to hear the last comment regarding cooling the turbos... Does Chuck have a preferred method of cooling or not re-heating turbos on Continental engines? Thanks for sharing the video. Best regards, -a-

39N/Princeton? Those guys are really getting to know Mooneys... Best regards, -a-

Congrats on the new bird, Keith... Do you have the 310hp with TopProp on that? Best regards, -a-

Got a pic? -a-

Solid? Or sold? -a-

@GeorgePerry Hasn't visited in a while... it’s been months... -a-

Acquiring the right skills... Often is called Transition Training... Get a Mooney Specific CFI And review all the fun specific to the airframe... performance landings and T/Os, E-procedures, Go-arounds.... +all the normal stuff... It is a great way to learn about your new Mooney... it’s a lot of fun, compared to the trainer plane. Best regards, -a-

This may help a bit -a-

See if @M20Doc is around... ^^^^ -a-

I had my hangar elf look up Wingwalk leaks... https://mooneyspace.com/search/?q=Wingwalk leak&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy&search_and_or=and There isn’t much to it... the screws leak, because they get walked on. So it’s like fixing an ordinary screw leak, just hiding under some wingwalk compound... Pp thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a-

Sorry David, you may have missed the line above the list... (Close, but Rough hp numbers... my memory is a bit aged...) That list was from an aged memory... From a refreshed memory... 270hp is correct according to AOPA... Something @DesertNomad May be interested in reading... There are a few well written pages regarding Mooneys.... MAPA is one resource (the best) and AOPA did a pretty good job too... https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/aircraft-fact-sheets/mooney-bravo (be sure to find all of the clickable tabs) When comparing small hp differences... some get lost in the temperature of the day.... winter performance can be tremendous compared to summer performance... 5% increase in the same plane starts to be noticeable in every way... 10% is measurable in every way... The 10% hp increase in the standard Ovation converted to a Standing Ovation, 280hp vs 310hp, has a very noticeable T/O distance improvement... The normal, light load, T/O roll, started as 1200’ and got shortened to 800’... This makes short runways more enjoyable... The climb out... I have a local ‘mountain’ I want to climb directly over... It is a Class B airport 6k’ tall... initial climb rates over 2k’pm has me hurdling that bar in a few minutes... Niko’s Screamin’ Eagle(?) has all of the performance + the best UL of all the Long Bodies... Where these HP numbers make the most sense... T/O roll, and climb rate... the increased fuel puts a bit of a dent in the finances of cruise... and can’t be used on short descents... Be careful visiting AAA... you don’t want to accidentally take home two Moonies... turbo for ultimate performance... NA for ultimate efficiency.... Best regards, -a-

Fair enough... I just didn’t want you to accidentally miss an opportunity to find what you are looking for... Some people actually can have challenges writing, compared to speaking... Some excellent technical people have some terrible writing skills, or are so short on time, their writing doesn’t reflect who they really are. Another challenge we have... differences in age brackets, locations around the country(s), and fiscal abilities... Some times it is better to ignore a response... Some Times It is normal to snipe back... throw up something like this at the end... You probably want to avoid getting on too many ‘ignore user’ lists... Being part of the community takes a small bit of effort. The pay back is tremendous... Go MS! Best regards, -a-

Oops... my bad, some clarification is in order... MSer... a person on MooneySpace. Some MSers come to learn about Mooneys... the machine They stay to learn more about Mooneys... the act of flying across all types of borders... They hang out after the Mooney is gone... for the lifestyle??? We (MS) have two MSers that have recently graduated from Mooneys to join the turbine world... One has been building a Lancair IVPT for decades, while flying a Mooney/Rocket Engineering Rocket... the other recently purchased the Piper/Rocket Engineering P46T... After flying an O3(?)... Some of the most interesting Mooneys have a Rocket Engineering twist in their DNA... Mooney started a relationship with RR to install their small turbine in the Long Body... the great recession had already begun before the paperwork was signed... Going turbine has additional costs to go with that decision... one of them is insurance. The initial investment in the hardware is inline with what you get, including the longevity and speed... the one cost that stands out is the insurance which can be a bit more than 2X... Call Rocket Engineering.... I bet we can convince them to put P&W PT6 on the front of a Long Body Mooney... I could learn to love an O2 hose... Best regards, -a-