Willie

2 hours ago, elimansour said:

Before the shutdown, I was commuting in my J between KMYF and KSJC/KPAO.  Like you, I planned to take SWA if there was icing, convection, 0/0 conditions etc. and ended up on SWA maybe 30-40% of the time.  Each one way trip in the J on average took 2.5-2.7 and burned about 25 gal. I like the reliability of the IO360 on the J and never had to scrub a flight for a maintenance issue.  I am sure with a Bravo, FIKI, etc. I would have relied on SWA less but I am ok getting on a 737 when conditions are beyond the capability of the J.  

I need to keep my points and companion pass on SWA so my wife and I can leave the kids with grandma and drink Margs in Cabo.

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

I'll take Willie at his word that if icing is a factor he'll take Southwest.

I'd get the J unless you can find a smoking deal on a K.  With you solo and even with full tanks, you will have a pretty nice climb rate in the J.  Probably average 700 to 800 ft/min up to 10,000.

Before you buy any Mooney, always ask about the useful load.  I've seen J's as low as the low 800's and as high as a bit over 1000 lbs.  K's are no better and maybe worse.  Our J is 1003 lbs.  With that said, using your numbers, for my J I would figure as follows.

At 11,000', LOP, I'd figure on about 150 KTAS on about 8.5 GPH.  At 12,000' I'd figure 150 KTAS on about 8.2 GPH.

I think your K calculations must be off.  While it might be a few minutes quicker because of the higher average climb rate and cruise speed, there is no way it can do that while burning less fuel than the J.  On a 377 mile trip I wouldn't think the K would be no more than about 10 or 15 minutes quicker but burn a few extra gallons to do that.

Looking at SkyVector, and using the route: CWARD2 SLI V459 LHS T259 AVE PXN6, that's  397 miles (20 miles further than you planned) and the highest MEA is 8800' so you could legally fly at 9000' and 10,000' (8500 and 9500 VFR).  That would let you spend less time climbing and cruise a little faster.  I'd figure 157 KTAS on 9.3 GPH.  SkyVector (with my airplane's numbers) says that would take 2+37 (no wind) and burn 25.6 gallons.  That includes 10 minutes and .5 gallons of padding I build into the assumptions.  Assume the return trip would be similar that's 51.2 gallons and 5+14 round trip.  Since the plane holds 64 gallons you could do the round trip and land at home with about 1+15 of fuel on board.

I’m glad you dove into the numbers. I wasn’t sure I had good numbers out of foreflight. I think both my J and K numbers were too optimistic. There are some great prices on lower engine time K’s. I’m just not sure how scared I should be of Mx 

Thanks for your detailed reply!

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

If you’re adding up exact fuel prices and round trip costs to compare between SWA and a GA airplane, you’ll be very disappointed with GA in the long run.  You won’t beat the airline on cost.  You buy a GA airplane because you love it, not because it saves $$.  It won’t.  Especially tied down outside.  
 

Not trying to be a jerk, just making sure you go in eyes wide open.  
 

A J will cost about $20k/year to operate 100 hours/year all in.  

Thanks for your reply. SWA is certainly a lot cheaper. That’s part of the decision to fly commercial half and fly myself half. I’m just trying to find the best airplane for me for the times I do fly myself.

4 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

If there’s icing above 6000’, can’t you just stay lower by going up the coast?


Tom

Not really. I need to get above LAX Bravo and some mountains are almost unavoidable. It’s possible to do but not a great plan.  I lived in Florida for a year so I know that highest natural terrain of 700’ must be pretty comfortable for you. I envy you for that and no state income tax!

 Thanks for your reply 

6 hours ago, donkaye said:

This is not what you want to hear, but for consistency of dispatch your choice of J would be out of the question for me on the route.  I like feeling good when I arrive at my destination and able to function 100% the rest of the day.  To me that requires O2 above about 7,000 feet for more than 2 hours of flight time.  Also, as you know, forget about flying in California from December to May on a consistent basis above 6,000 feet in clouds due to icing in an NA airplane with no deicing.  Needing the plane for commute to work demands a more capable airplane than the J Model.  I just can't see how it would be considered reliable transportation very often during that time of year.

For me the best Mooney for that job would be either the 252 or the Bravo.  Only the Bravo is certified for FIKI, and that is what you need for consistent commute transportation.  If you look hard, you can probably find one with a mid time engine for around 165,000.  It is the most undervalued, unappreciated great buy in the Mooney arena today.

French Valley (F70) in Southern California and either Byron (C83) or Tracy (KTCY) would be the best places to buy fuel for your airports.  The Bravo burns about 18 gal/hr and your trip generally takes about 90 gallons round trip assuming no great headwinds.  The fastest I have made the trip in my Bravo KSJC to KCRQ is 1.7 hours with a good tailwind and the longest 3.2 hours with a 60 knot headwind.  Average time is 2 hours each way.  I would generally fly 15,000 to 17,000 feet down and 16,000 back.  When my Father lived in Carlsbad I did that trip often.  I don't have TKS, so I had to plan more carefully in the wintertime.  With TKS it would normally be a no brainer and you could do most of your trips without SWA.

With the J you'd be sweating almost every trip in the wintertime and flying over the Tehachapis below 12,000 feet anytime would just be too uncomfortable for me even going up V459.

BTW my first airplane purchase was my airplane, 28 years ago.  After flying and teaching in almost every Model Mooney over the past 26 year, I would make the same decision today.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience Don. There is a Bravo listed at American Aircraft for $119,000 but the rest are out of my price range. The one listed looks nice but not sure what I should be looking for on a Bravo in terms of engine time etc?
 

Regarding winter ops, my work is slow between Thanksgiving and mid January so I don’t go to Oakland as often and my plan was to really only fly myself in good weather and take SWA any other time. A 60 Kt headwind would also be an example of me going on the airline.

My friend does a similar commute in a B-55 from KCRQ to KSJC and he goes up over LAX VTU and then up over Santa Maria and up the valley avoiding Lake Hughes Gorman area. He admits ATC will try to get you to go over Lake Hughs but he’s generally able to get his routing.

Ive never spent much time with a tube in my nose. I do remember it drying me out a bit. Maybe that’s something I just need to become accustomed to?? 
 

Thank you for your insight. I will study up on Bravos and see what I can learn.

Cool photo! I like that racing green color.

Hello,

I’m a new member but I’ve been reading the great info on MooneySpace for a while and I’m looking for advice on my first airplane purchase.

I‘m a corporate pilot based in Oakland but I live in Carlsbad (actually Encinitas) and I’m looking for a good commute plane that I can also use for a few family getaways each year. I would say 80% of my flight time will be solo, 20% with my family of four. ( me, wife , two young lightweight kids) Total weight currently 430lb. Kids will eventually grow heavier but not for a while. 9 and 7 yrs old.

Based on preliminary research, the J and K seem to be the best models in my price range but I know the Mx costs are different. The J seems like a much simpler 4 cylinder with more proven history of making TBO while the K (with the LB engine, intercooler, Merlin) could prove to be a sweet deal on performance as long as nothing goes too terribly wrong with Mx costs. 
 

The trip to and from Carlsbad to Oakland is 377 miles on an IFR route. I used ForeFlight and selected what I think are the correct models and performance profiles and the J will do the round trip in 4hr51min burning 58.1 gallons and the K will do it in 4hrs even burning 51.5 gallons. This is using 12,000’ going up and 11,000’ coming home. 
 

I currently make this commute on SWA on average 40 times a year. My plan is fly myself 20 times a year and take SWA 20 times a year based mostly off of weather. This is  80- 100 hrs a year depending on J or K model just on commute. I anticipate another 30-40 hours of other flying.
 

A couple other notes:

I can park in my work hangar in Oakland but would be paying for a tie down in Carlsbad do to high hangar rent. Fuel $5 gallon self serve in Carlsbad but $6.50 gallon in OAK so would try to tanker fuel. There are a couple airports such as French Valley and Bakersfield that are on the way for $3.50. If I get good at this route I could fly it more and take SWA less. My total travel time Door to door regardless of SWA or me flying about the same. 

I guess my questions are.

1. do these foreflight numbers seem correct?
2. Should I fly the K higher for better performance and go on O2?
3. Are there models with longer range tanks that could get me round trip with reserves so I could avoid gas in Oakland?
4. What are cost differences on annuals and routine Mx ?

5. does anyone make it to TBO on a K?

6. What else am I missing?

7. Has anyone done this or similar commute and can share some insight?

8. I am open to other models as well. I mention J and K because those seem most prevalent and in the budget.

 

Budget for purchase is $125,000 

Thanks for reading! And appreciate any knowledge you can share.
 

Will