TheDyood

9 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

First of all, any Mooney model C through V will fit your mission. I currently fly a 252, but previously had an M20C and flew it across the Cascades a couple of times and into Colorado many times without any issues. If the backseat is always full, the short bodies C,E might not be as comfortable, but they will easily handle flights with four when needed.

Now to your real questions... how do you do vintage airplane ownership without getting upside down. The first thing I'd do... and I did... was to start tracking every Mooney listed for sale anywhere by model.  I think you'll find the ceiling for an M20C is about $50K, an M20E is about $65K and an F is about $80K. For that money you want a currently airworthy airplane, clean airframe, mid-time (500-1000 hour) engine, WAAS GPS and autopilot and regularly/currently flying.

The best "deal" on any of these airplanes will be to buy at the top of the price range. The owner will undoubtedly have $10K to $50K over the asking price, invested and you the buyer takes advantage of that. 

You'll also note by running the numbers, that a C that is in cherry condition, good avionics and autopilot, but with a runout engine, and an asking price over $25K, will likely put you upside down by the time you do the engine. With the E and F you have more room to work without going upside down economically.

As the size of the vintage fleet goes down, examples that are still good deals, get more and more rare. 

A neglected C that's been sitting for a few years with original avionics, leaky tanks, and either an engine that's runout or has just been sitting for some time, is really worth no more than it's weight in scrap aluminum. 

But if you find that good M20C, E, or F, like many on this forum, that is flying regularly and has been kept somewhat up to date, buy it. You'll love it. 

BUT... even this is no guarantee of ownership success... as @Marauder said, you need to be able to handle the worst case scenario. You really need to have the cash to be able to drop $10K immediately after purchase, and $5K per year above and beyond normal and expected expenses. And be able to locate funds equal to the cost of an engine in the worst case scenario (credit, home equity, etc.) And in the very worst case, write off the value of the airplane and walk away. (I almost had to do this with my M20K 252). 

In spite of all this... we here at MooneySpace, wouldn't do any differently. I've been a Mooney owner since March 2014 and my ONLY regret is all the years prior that I didn't own a Mooney.

Thank you, this was what I was looking for in the ramblings that was the first post. Am I close with the following?

Overhaul: $20k

Avionics (say 2x G5 and a used 430): $15k

Paint or interior: $10k

2 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

... and most of all.  CONGRATS ON PASSING YOUR CHECK RIDE!!!

Thank you! I'm oscillating between being stoked that I don't have to study anymore and wondering if I should start looking at some IFR material...

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

 

As we have seen a number of times on this forum, people who move into ownership seem to be surprised by the costs.

When I bought my F in 1991 I had a fixed budget. I found a low time F, paid for it with cash and over the past 27 years have been improving it as the budget allows. The budget also included saving money specifically for the plane. Not college education, not home remodeling, but for the plane. That tends to minimize the family discussions about priorities for the earmarked monies. If I couldn’t save for the plane, it wasn’t going to work. And when I say “saved” I mean for the engine overhauls, avionics and the money needed to fix the unexpected.

The first thing you need to do is find a healthy airframe. Don’t get caught up in the paint or the interior but rather concentrate on a clean airframe, with a solid engine or an engine that is near TBO and this is factored into the cost and working avionics that you want and/or need. Don’t get fooled into thinking costs are going to get lower. They won’t. Trust me I know.

Make a list of the things you want in the plane. Make sure that list includes must haves and wants. If there is a plane without one of the must haves you either factor that into your budget for the acquisition cost or you move onto the next plane.

In your plane search you will find the ones that have been maintained and those that have been held onto. You are looking for the best of the maintained ones that you can afford.

As for the budget, unless you have a lot of disposable income, don’t finance it. Something ugly may come up and now you are saddled with the monthly payment and a large cost. There is one guy on this site going through this now.

Even if you find a decent plane,plan to have at least $10k for the unexpected costs in the first year that may come up. And they do, stuff on the annual, a busted radio, a new servo or a jug on the engine.

As for the engine. There are options. If you find a decent plane with a runout engine and it is priced accordingly, you have go with a field overhaul, a shop overhaul or a Lycoming refurbished/overhaul. And there is a range depending on how much of the accessories you plan on overhauling at the same time. For me, at a minimum it would be mags, fuel/carb accessories and other accessories depending on age and time on the engine.

Just do us a favor. Don’t talk yourself into something you can’t afford to own. Build out a spreadsheet of the costs associated with ownership and see if $X per year is palatable. I plan on $25k per year all in.


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Like I tell people who are interested in the wine business, everyone needs a hole to throw money down. All great points, and all things to take into consideration. Thank you!

I'm definitely of the mind that there are a few things that it needs, and everything else is gravy. Airframe above all. 

7 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

When looking at buying a plane you need to define you mission.  You already defined part of it 250NM +/- would be your typical trip.

How many people will yo have?

How much stuff do you want to bring?

The early models B to F are excellent planes that can be had for low initial investment.  As many will say get a pre purchase inspection done by an independent aviation mechanic.

For 250nm trips a Cessna 172 would be suitable as well and you initial insurance would be less than in a Mooney with retractable gear.

Tell us about your general location and where you plan on flying?  Mountains might change what you look at in planes.  Try to get with different people and fly different airplanes before you decide on any model and look at the  the capabilities of the plane are and get the one that fits 80% of the flying you will do.  Your location will help there are many here who are just itching for an excuse to fly and show off there machines.

 

I'd like to carry four, but two is more than likely. Mountains are a possibility. I'm in E. Washington, the Cascade pass is at 5,440 and a lot of time to get there. Most of the peaks sit at 9,000 and under. There could be some real mountain travel (Sierra Nevadas/Truckee) but not until a mountain checkout down there. Otherwise, I can see the central coast and north bay of CA in the future as well. Mission and weight and balance wise, I don't see a lot of issues with the M20 (barring a high DA day in Tahoe, but that's going to hit a lot of GA planes). Most of time is in high wings (150/172/182) and a couple hours in an F. I liked it, but am definitely seeking more opportunities.

I think my big concern is if there really is a way to not get too upside down on a 50 year old plane whose engine is due, especially if you don't have any plans on selling it and it's well looked after at PPI and annual. And if the engine does need to be replaced/remaned/overhauled, what is the worst case scenario and how much of that can be a surprise post purchase.

Hi all,

I've had my PPL for all of a week but I have been looking at my options for a while now. I'm at a field with limited, if any, rental opportunities, and 250nm+ to the places I would like to be spending more of my time. The more I look at things, the more a C/E/F seems to be the way to go.

What I don't wholly understand, but have a grasp on, is trying to find a plane at a price that makes sense. There was a great discussion late last year about pricing a plane that has been sitting, and brought up the general economics of buying a vintage bird, trying to bring it to modern times, all the while not losing your shirt in the process (especially with a high time engine). This is where I get lost and have been trying to research to no avail. I get that avionics are expensive, as are autopilots. However, it seems that there is actually movement toward competition and competitive pricing. This is great, especially for someone who is VFR and looking to get into a plane for IFR and beyond.

Engines, engines I can't seem to find clear guidance. Looking at airpowerinc.com, who seem to have no problem publishing pricing, it looks like a new O-360-A1A is $75k, rebuilt is $50k, and overhauled is $44k, not including a core ($16k). I understand there are cheaper overhaul deals from reputable shops. Something crossed my eye about a shop not taking a core. How often is this the case?

Basically, I can almost argue myself into a $30k plane knowing that it might be another $30k for engine and avionics, and that if/when it comes to sell, you won't see most of that money again. What I can't see is throwing $60k at it for negligible resale increase. I tend to run things into the ground as opposed to trading up every couple of years, so this would kind of be a forever plane.

I've really enjoyed this site, and there seems to be a great amount of knowledge here. Please feel free to share any wisdom you might have.