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a properly painted prop wont do that. if they etch, alodine, and primer, and topcoat inside the proper window, it will adhere. This was not.

If you are looking for an M20J project plane that looks like it is in much better condition, there appears to be one in Houston at Hooks airport (KDWH). It is advertised locally in Houston on Facebook Marketplace. I have not been up to Hooks to see it personally - just looking at the current ad and the old Aircraft.com ad N204MM. 1978 M20J. Current owner claims it was hangared continuously until Dec. 2024. And that he bought it as a father/kid project but medical issues got in the way. Paint looks fairly decent in the pics - some weathering but nothing like the one you are looking at. Marketplace - 1978 Mooney M20J | Facebook From 2007 N204MM | 1978 MOONEY M20J 201 on Aircraft.com Aircraft.com ad from 2007 says Painted in 1998 with Imron JPI EDM-700 Graphic Engine Monitor (Including Fuel Flow, Voltage and Oil Temperature), 231-Style Wingtips with Enclosed Strobes, Mod Works Low Profile Gear Doors, Quarter Inch Glass Installed in 1998 Rosen Sun-Visors STEC 30 Autopilot with Altitude Hold and GPSS Roll Steering. GNS430 - may or may not be WAAS He is asking $40,000 He pulled the engine to have it overhauled but has not shipped it off yet. Possibly you could have the engine reinstalled, ferry it back up North to your home drome. Just an idea - but appears to be better condition and better equipped than the one you are looking at.

That single row of rivets around the large cross-section of the tailcone/cabin joint provides a LOT of structural capability, actually. And the loads from the tail aren't enormous either... it obviously works well enough with the vast fleet history. I removed the tailcone from my salvage plane long ago... drilling out the rivets isn't awful at all once you get some practice. Dealing with the sealant in the joint was a bit more difficult, but I didn't use heat like I should have to make it easier. I completely agree with the Maxwell method vs. removing the wing. Avoid that if at all possible to save time on the back end.

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2446769&s-type=aircraft Just to share another example of why an E in the mid-$100k range isn't unreasonable, here is a $215K M20J with a low-time engine, nice interior, nice panel. An E at $160k with all the J-mods equipped comparably is a $55k savings, and if you never needed space in the rear seats, you win.

The original Hartzell on my C was condemned because it had been overhauled the maximum allowable number of times. Both blades with root diameter under min. limit. So I bought a Hartzell "Top Prop" to replace it. I saw no increase in speed. It might have been a little bit quieter, but not obviously so. I had it installed in August. The paint started to come off the stripes on tips the first time I flew through rain, in Sept. Took it back to the shop where I bought it and they repainted it in Nov. I paid (again) to have it reinstalled. Next time I flew through rain- paint started coming off again. Repainted in November, and here is a photo of what it looked like the following June. Hartzell couldn't care less. The prop shop said that they would keep repainting it if I returned it to their shop. It costs money to remove/reinstall a prop, and the prop shop wouldn't pay. Hartzell couldn't rub two coins together. I never landed on grass or taxied through weeds. Nothing unusual. Just flew through rain. My experience with the Hartzell Top Prop was not positive. If I had it to do over again, I'd try to find a good used prop with a "B" hub.

This is an interesting topic and one I’ve been wondering about myself. I’ve been seeing larger than usual spotting in the hangar out the breather tube. Oil consumption is less than stellar somewhere in the 3-4 hours per quart range, oil analysis shows consistently high chrome, but Boroscopy hasn’t revealed any smoking guns so I haven’t worried about it too much just waiting on any further signs of distress. “Compressions” as the alt test that could isolate one cylinder hasn’t pointed one out. Gosh if we could just have a looksie at rings and cams without major surgery we’d nearly put the forums out of business bc there would be nothing to talk about. Haha. Air cooled piston aircraft engines are just a perfectionists nightmare.

Somehow, now knowing that the tail of my plane is ONLY held on by a single row of rivets is NOT comforting!

There may be a simpler more elegant solution..... Hooks historically waived the ramp/landing fee if you purchased fuel. "Roll the fuel truck and top her off". Then he can have it dragged to the ramp with no Vector/PlanePass fee!

Run Forrest, run!

What service level? I heard you need the $250 /month variety for it to work at high speed.

How does the W&B compare with both props on your E? Will removing weight on the nose and moving the CG aft help you, or hurt you, in terms of loading flexibility and cruise speed? Generally, aft CG = faster, but if you're already near the aft limit then a lighter prop might hurt you. On my J, it helped going from the OEM 2-blade McCaulley to the 3-blade MT that was ~12 lbs lighter. That may not be the case for a C or E.

I got a silicone case for it and sit it on the glareshield in front of me. I’m tall enough that it isn’t in my line of sight. For T/O and landing, it is on the floor, under my seat.

Pics on where you have it? Thanks!

dkkim: Thanks for the sylvan metaphor. I don't suspect the wire as where I tested at the end of the line, I had voltage, and when grounding that out, juice was flowing in the circuit. If the wiring shorted out between the battery and the sounding device, the breaker would have tripped. If the wire shorted out after the sound device and the stall vane switch, I wouldn't have voltage at the switch, which I did. I have great hope for the noisemaker being the issue. If that fails to be the issue, I think the next logical step would be to check my hearing, which unfortunately would then open the door to medical metaphors. Jer

I’ll usually look for a bad ground when flaky readings present themselves. Can you “T” the line for a test with an analog gauge?

Yeah, but that costs money too- I didn't see it as my problem. Who better to repaint than a prop shop? Their repainting job didn't stick so I doubt that an A&P rattle can paint job would have. Anyhow, that propeller and the aircraft it is attached to is no longer mine. I just offered my experience to help the OP make a decision. I would not spend money on a new Hartzell Top Prop if I could find a good used prop with a B hub. It ain't worth it, and Hartzell did have a QA/QC problem with the one that I bought that was not resolved to my satisfaction.

FWIW, one of the few things an A&P can do to a prop is paint it. You don't need to take it off and send it to the shop if there's an A&P that will paint it in-place for you.

After getting bladders installed, I wanted all the gunked up fuel stains removed. I tried everything; 100LL, Acetone, Mineral Spirits, maybe MEK; can't remember. I ended up hiring a detailer to polish and wax the plane. They ended up doing exactly what you suggest; rubbing compound, polish, sealer, and a lot of grunt work. I have no idea how many polishing pads they went through; I doubt they could be washed and reused.

And it is not that many rivets. You are not disassembling the tail, just drilling out the one row around the tail cone

Wet air pumps have metal rotors and vanes and are lubricated with engine oil. They require an air oil separator to recover the oil from the pump exhaust. On some installations the exhaust is used to pressurize deice boots. You don’t want to fill your boots with oil. Wet pumps are more reliable than dry pumps, but are messier and the separators take some maintenance. In the 70s most manufacturers changed to dry pumps. This was supposed to be a big improvement. They were cleaner and less maintenance, but they were prone to sudden failure. https://www.chiefaircraft.com/aircraft/vacuum-static-system/air-pump-wet.html

Away from my references and trying to remember this. I do the same thing, but also keep the wx page zoomed out. I like North up at larger scales, and I believe there's a setting to set a zoom threshold where it switches. Might check that as it could affect the display.

, We understand. You're not out of the woods yet. Going straight to the noisemaker makes sense. But if that doesn't work, you might consider testing the wire. I hear stories around here of things wearing where they cross metal, especially if not secured with a clamp. Just a thought.

Is this what you are looking for? From the download section: https://mooneyspace.com/files/file/177-m20-series-service-and-maintenance-manual-1968-1978-1pdf/ If not, there are other factory manuals available there if you look around.

Snowbird Mooney on FB did a comparison on the I think it was between 3 blade Hartzell v 2 Blade McCauley prop on mid 60's C Models. .https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FrEx4EzV4NJM%3Fsi%3D4RMULGDEmuZ8hZkY%26fbclid%3DIwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR64Xg2d9PKKDhfq0o3eC7S73m4z3ArfH99l0tcqTjPpFgkOFuYekaTu-ql07Q_aem_vlkrXj_JK4ci5At8yrLD9w&h=AT14nNGXlgnae3C_NK13855G-M7WfBYhUwHORlkZeSNQWGOqHMEGNl1aM7_uHGMG5LVa4kd2hm1fQrMe7VkxD2R82sOz1zx2fWCOanbn2iPJQG-7uD-hnWqxf95rWr4AppPCVJGqGuYzWkUaO6KdRmI&__tn__=H-R&c[0]=AT1XEye8FKfVKCOniIFJrQYQ5BewEmJLQw2PoJKpj3OopcySmphbjj6tfdMl3idb8kaDx0-6KI58LomJQOcsFj1ERS-CmWW3UeuHIDVERq0r_1mlkSCrFoq1-Cyf0sxOqcyxlp1Ea6hykjlQbmxCXyX-_g9jOe0MS5lM-sjSeLc2jFMH7Ec Top Prop 2 blade is about 3 lbs heavier than the Original 2 blade Hartzell Prop but on C models gets rid of the "avoid continuous RPM" operation restriction in Cruise. if I recall correctly on the 'E model it reduced the avoid continuous range operation in Cruise.

Yea i wonder why mooney installed oil separators on the brand new engines of 252’s from the factory? And since it was certified with one from the factory, i don’t think i could remove it without a field approval. Since it’s always been on there i do not know how much it helps compared to not having one on there.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I am talking about upgrading my 3-blade McCauley with a **metal** Hartzell Scimitar prop. Not the new carbon fiber one -- that thing is insanely expensive ($25k??). We're talking changing a $4k prop for a $9k prop.

Reading some posts on wood/composite coated and comparing to stock metal, that thing is the price of a car and I don’t think for the average leg length your block to block time will be a noticeable difference, let alone the price of a car different The other issue, though not as much for a Mooney, is damage, it’s got a metal edge but it still won’t take FOD etc damage as well as a metal prop. Sounds like you got a good prop on it already, I’d invest that money elsewhere IMO

Flew a round-trip mission yesterday from Alabama to Iowa. Here's the confluence of the Mighty Mississippi (left) and Mightier Ohio (right) river at Cairo, Illinois (center). The Mississippi on that day was more turbid than the Ohio. Both legs done VFR.

You SO HAD ME at do your own work...because you enjoy it AND because you KNOW it was done correctly...AND THEN you REALLY got judgy and even when you say you are NOT you talk about the debt culture. I get that too, but you can only live YOUR life and CONTROL, to a degree, what you do and the results. As far as I am concerned do whatever you want with your possessions and life...BUT when someone comes here asking what I think of entertaining that plane for that price the first comment of RUN AWAY was based on knowledge and experience. Those that see this airframe as a future flying member of the fleet I just can't agree. There are PLENTY of Mooney's flying and the fleet needs parts donor aircraft. Nothing wrong with that. The bonus is no one was injured and no insurance was engaged to get there. Just benign neglect. As a fellow debt free get your knuckles black and bloody guy. I salute you. Stopping the why don't others...Is the key to happiness.

Best advice I have for you is to take the interior pieces out put them in a box and ship them to Hector at Aero Comfort. Even though they are in rough shape they will come back repaired and covered in Ultraleather looking much better than new.

@Jackk I have to say I'm sorry that your opinion is so narrow as to exclude others' approaches to life, and view them as inferior. No point in trying to argue with that arrogance. I will say I am quite capable with many of the hands-on skills you seem to value above all else. I retired early debt free, and never made anywhere near $2M/year (or I'd own a PC-12). Yet, I have no issue paying others for things I am perfectly capable of doing myself because I value my time greatly for things I WANT to do. An aviation example is that I change my own oil and filter as it's easy and quick. OTOH, I have A&P/IA friends that would supervise me performing most of the work for my annuals, yet I choose to pay for them as I don't want to invest that kind of time (30-40 hours), regardless of how many dollars it would save me. I prefer to do other things with that time. To denigrate those with 'non calloused hands', or those that just don't want a project, seems incredibly elitist to me. As my high school biology teacher said to our class many years ago, "The only thing you cannot buy more of is time". None of us knows how much we are given; spend it wisely.

It’ll spin up APU, start a electric starter jet or turbo prop, now the mighty 6 banger conti/lyc might be too much

Honestly, if it doesn't work I'd move on to rubbing compound, followed by polishing compound and wax before I used nasty chemicals that might really damage the paint. If the stains are that 'deep' I think rubbing them out will be a lot easier to control the location and amount of paint removed.

Savvy didn’t manage this. If you read this from the beginning you’ll see he didn’t contact Savvy until well after the OP authorized work. He contacted us for help after advice from people here on this thread plus we only manage maintenance with shops that agree to our processes and terms. So the OP did end up using us as a consultant to help him with the shop but it was well past our ability prevent what had already happened- nor are we lawyers that try to intervene after the fact. But you can ask the OP if he’s seeing value by contracting with us. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you say so…

Call Maxwell. Tell him how easy it is on a 140. He might learn something.

I thought of your “dispute” when I saw this yesterday. I say you’re a lucky man with first world problems. Apparently it could be much worse…

When I did my engine a couple of years ago, I used Continental (ECI) cylinders. I pulled the rings off one piston to set the gaps. They were all dead nuts on. So I left the other three alone.

Be careful with MEK, is very agressive. I heard people also use 100LL, yeah, kind of fight fire with fire. The logic behind using 100LL is that the stain comes from the fuel evaporating and leaving behind the dye. So with fuel you could remove the dye and as long as you remove the 100LL with a rag, it should be good.

Yes, in the cases i’ve seen though it resulted in high CHTs and chewed up the cylinder walls pretty bad. So cylinders were replaced. This is more of a Superior cylinder issue because the installing A&P has to assure proper ring gap at installation whereas other cylinders usually come already properly gapped so it can be missed when the installer doesn’t read the provided documentation and warnings that come with Superior cylinders. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Long time no see Anthony either! Welcome back to both of you!

I think there is a SMALL market for an "over-improved" E or F, and the right buyer will recognize value in one with an asking price that stands above the field and even flirts with J territory. I say that as an 18+ year owner of a '77 J that was looking for a modified E or F originally, but stretched to get into my J and I'm happy I did. It is of course entirely possible to modify an E or F to mimic a J in just about every meaningful way, but they will never be a true J in the market, and thus the value will always hit a ceiling. The debate here, IMO, comes down to value for the dollar and for the right buyer (like Greg in this case) it might make more sense to buy an over-improved $150k E vs. a $150k J. Greg certainly knows the Mooney line and he stated his mission is 2 people + bags and moderate distance flying, not all the way across the country since he can just hop on a company plane and do that now. In this case, a $150k E that has been thoroughly modernized with a panel full of Garmin including a GFC500 autopilot done by a meticulous owner/IA, yet still retains the awesome J-bar gear so he doesn't have to fret about actuator gears and other tidbits I'm thinking about. It has all of the J exterior mods so it is likely faster than my plane too. Comparing to my early J, I've done all of the exterior mods/upgrades to later specs and have an awesome paint job. I've got nice Bravo seats (including rear buckets instead of the bench), good windows and sidewalls, but I have a vintage panel + GNS530W/430W and STEC30 autopilot. I'm insured for $175k but wouldn't sell it for that if asked. I still have things I want to do like the panel, primarily. For Greg's mission, I'd say he's getting a turnkey simple speedster that meets his needs for quite a bit less than he could get my J without a modern panel, and a whole lot less for another J with a modern panel. There is also an adage to consider that you're buying the previous owner as much as the plane itself, and in this case, that is a very good thing! Having said that, a J offers more potential utility/flexibility due to more cabin space, and especially if you can take one or both back seats out. It comes down to how much that utility is worth it to you... would you pay $50k more for a truly equivalent J vs. a modernized E? If you never put people in back, why pay more? I'd rather take that extra money and buy a toy plane to add to the hangar.

+1 on Bruce Taylor at Air Power Accessories. He is very experienced with the dual mags, and talked me out of doing an overhaul and just doing a 500-hour for some good reasons. Mine was done in February for about $1800 and it's been fine. Bruce is very good to work with. Highly recommend.

Call this guy: http://www.airpoweraccessories.com

The Mooney Summit 's Bill Gilliland foundation will be reaching out to Gentry to offer crisis intervention and financial assistance. Thanks to everyone who support the Mooney Summit's mission "to better the breed" and our charitable foundation to aid downed Mooney pilot's families at the time of their greatest need.