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"two teenage girls and some bags" You need a PC12

There are four good reasons to live in Minneapolis in the winter: 1. You can get a glass of ice water right out of the tap. 2. You can lock your car with a glass of water. 3. You can use your van as a deep freeze. 4. You can clean up after the dog with a nine iron.

Yep. That was the plane I just sold. Many testing hours went into getting the design right. Loved the plane... Just outgrew it... Hope she likes her new home! Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Welcome to Mooneyspace!, Last September, I purchased a FIKI 95 Bravo with lots of avionics upgrades, long range tanks (7 hour endurance!) and almost new paint for a number that is very close to your budget (2400 hr TT, NDH, 1100 HR SMOH). I have invested another 20K since purchase in handling some "deferred maintenance" issues. I've owned a 93 J Mooney, an '05 Ovation 2 and an '07 Acclaim Type S. For what it's worth, here's what I have learned: 1) I do not enjoy turbulence for extended periods of time so a turbo really comes in handy. 2) I want to safely dispatch in most weather conditions so FIKI is a must (and turbo). 3) Airplane maintenance is expensive in general and the Bravo has some peculiarities that raise its maintenance costs somewhat higher (25 hr oil changes, expensive engine and components). Someone else wisely pointed out that although these airplanes are in the 200K range, a comparable new aircraft is 750K so you can reasonably expect the maintenance costs to be reflective of an airplane worth 750K. 4) They all go reasonably fast, some faster, higher and farther than others. Pick one that fits 85% of your mission profile, is within your purchase AND operating budget. Fly commercial the other 15% of the time. Have fun researching and as my wife says, "Sometimes it comes down to not making the right choice but making your choice right".

OK, we will let you hang around. But only if you promise to be nice

As cujet mentioned it’s kinda a trade off a Lancair with 300+hp Will barrel through the sky approaching 300 knots. Brian mentioned useful load it’s all dependent on the mission, mine is fulfilled with the long body, I don’t plan on going on Beech talk, Cirrus world or other sites to outline the virtues of Mooney’s nor the other sites. It rankles me to no end other types of ships coming onto our sight outlining the excellence of there planes, even when true.Theres no doubt every plane has shortcomings and qualities, if they meet your need and mission they’ve accomplished their intended goal.

...the entire atmosphere from 5,000 feet to 50,000 feet is nearly isothermal (a lapse rate of zero) as it is here for the 00Z radiosonde launch from Minneapolis.

Not cool Dude

Hey aren’t you on the shunned list with Guitarmaster and a few other traitors? [emoji6] Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

I’ve had a 1977 J then. 1988 J, purchased new, I purchased 2005 BravoGX in 2006. The two J’s basically the same except the 88 was 5-7 knots faster, assumption is they cleaned up the frame a little over the years. The Bravo being heavier and larger depends on brute power to mover it along obviously the higher the faster. Keeping these things in rig and mechanically perfect provides for the best speed over efficiency, of which the Bravo is limited by higher fuel usage. I assume the Bravo, eagle and Ovation have similar speeds below 10,000 feet then the changes in atmospheric conditions kick in. The speed we gain are through a multitude of items, airframe, power and more important the atmosphere. The great thing about our Mooneys is the wide range of utility, from awesome C model providing 140-150 knots on well less than 10gph through the mighty U models providing up to 242 knots on 20 GPH There have been a lot of discussion on this site, I thought it was a Mooney site discussing the attributes of Beech models, that’s another topic I’d like to stay away from. Look at our vintage birds through our latest models, there’s quite a difference in there utility,speed efficiency and useful load. Not much of a reason to stray away. GO MOONEY

If you live near the Midwest i'm pretty sure it's too cold to fly, atleast for the next couple days

Good people here! When he says free he means it! Skates97 would not accept payment even for shipping so a donation has been made to Mooneyspace. Thank you @Skates97 & Mooneyspace!

Oops. Sorry. Late to the party. Chairman Powell was speaking... (good news... interest rates should be staying Lowa Falonga... This should help the Mooney buyer that needs a loan) Be nice to the Brand B flyers... Some people can’t decide what they want to fly... If you want... Speed Efficiency Safety Most weather capable, Single engine, factory built... Go Mooney... If Speed is the stronger desire, but efficiency is still important... Go Long Body... If speed and most weather capability are the drivers... Go Turbo Long Body... The Most capable Mooneys have some impressive after market instrument panels... The rest are details to be checked. What prop you have is pretty far down the list.... Given the budget, the reality is going to have some compromise... Having 310 hp requires more than two blades... Flying in the FLs get what is proven to work... As far as engine longevity goes... it isn’t brand management... it is engine management... the power is in YOUR hands. Ovations can go to TBO without needing cylinders... pilot controllable... Bravos and Acclaims may need cylinders at the halfway point... I would want to do this, because speed and selective maintenance go together... Now if you think a Brand B doesn’t have these engine challenges... Keep both eyes open, visit BT... rejoice... Don’t by Stuff because it is popular... buy long term stuff because it meets expectations, for decades... For shopping, visit AAA... https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/?pcid=17527&dlr=1 The idea of buying an expensive plane from an individual sounds like an artificial limitation... unless you are buying a premium plane... and you are paying a premium anyway... Ken is our resident private plane buyer with the most personal experience buying planes... averaging a plane each year or two... has a lot of flight experience including being a CFI... But has a main job outside of aviation... Brian went from a small Mooney to a Beech single, and recently went twin... tons of aviation centered experience Scott... just got shunned... Usually we discuss the mission a pilot has... experience of the pilot is important... where his future is... This thread started with budget, and what can I get.... (Typical Brand B discussion) I would go back to stating the mission first... changing planes annually can get expensive... not having the experience can be terribly dangerous... Lets spend the OP’s money wisely... safely, efficiently, and... quickly! See if 201er can light off the new fly-in season... b2002 (sounds like a BMWer?) The NJMP is a group of Mooney pilots that does a fair amount of flying in your area... Welcome aboard! MS has many residents... Most are avid speed and efficiency plane owners... Safety of flight is everything! Join the conversation, add some of your experience, get some additional experience while you are here. Don’t get shunned... Don’t get me wrong, my Acclaim TopProp is important... just number 11) on my top 10 list... Go O1! And then add sauce!!! Best regards, -a-

Not a cheap hobby...but my wife is all on board so green lights ahead! Thanks for the insights, very valuable to me, hope to pay it forward someday.

When we travel in our 252, the rear seats come out (26 lbs total) leaving a continuous flat carpeted floor from the baggage area up to the back of the front seats. We just pile the luggage in and leave enough room for our 50 lb dog to be comfortable. We have standard 76 gal fuel capacity. For our mission, it's the perfect airplane. It goes further than we'd really want to go without stopping, (6.5 hours @ 160 down low or 190 up high). It hauls enough for two adults and a dog. And it still looks sexy as hell on the ramp and in the air.

Almost Mooney owner here! After 12 months of searching, comparing, and contemplating; I'm about 24 hours from picking up a 75 M20F from its pre-buy inspection. I'll be sure to post pictures and updates as I go. I've been watching, reading, and learning on this site for most of that year and really do appreciate the knowledge a new mooniac can find here. Frank

baggage limit if 340 lbs if you're not using the back seats. just fold them down and enjoy the additional space and load. in most cases, people who want single engine piston FIKI planes to go into O2 levels are not flying with more than 2 people.

Well, when temps are 50º below what you are used to, it just feels cold!

Yea, its pretty damn cold here too, its only getting up to 73 today, brrrr

I agree, but someone has to keep the balance somehow when it goes sideways.... BeechTalk has it's share of Mooney, Cessna, and even Cirrus (gawd help us) owners/drivers. I do spend time defending Mooney against bad or just down right misinformation being given as fact over there (especially when it comes from someone with zero Mooney experience ). However, there is a ton of great information you can pick-up from any board which is why I'm still here... Cheers, Brian

There was one test flight with a full grown adult in the baggage compartment, and it didn't go well.

I think a simple welcome to the form to the new member would have sufficed.

My J has 940 useful. Full fuel is ~7 hours running lop. With 1/2 fuel (enough for a 350 nm trip with 1 hour reserve) I can legally carry 4 170 pounders and 68 pounds of baggage. That has always been sufficient for me. There is no good reason to carry enough fuel for 800 miles if you aren't going to need it.

While it may not "require" a backup, what happens if it goes dark? I'm always going to have a backup AI whether it's required or not.

Um that’s not how it works... same displacement. Same service ceiling. All ya have is higher rpm available. Which you don’t use in cruise. No turbo. I cruise up high at 2300rpm not 2700. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In cruise remember you’re not using any of the extra 30hp of the 310hp ovations. That’s reserved for takeoff and climb. I have a 280hp ovation with the new prop. It’s an O1. The 310 hp upgrade wouldn’t make me any faster... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A long and interesting discussion. I'll try to summarize the facts: 1. 14 CFR Part 1 states "VFE means maximum flap extended speed." If only a single VFE is specified, then it applies to all flap extensions. No other interpretation makes sense because it would require the maximum speed for other than full extension to be unspecified. 2. The TCDS defines the conditions for airworthiness. Pilots generally do not reference the TCDS, so the airworthiness conditions pertinent to operation are included the Airplane Flight Manual Limitations section. This section is regulatory and binding on the pilot. 3. Flaps do four things: 1) They increase CLmax while reducing the angle of attack at which CLmax occurs, 2) They decrease the angle of attack at which zero lift occurs, 3) They increase drag, 4) They create a pitching moment. 4. Mooney flaps are more effective at reducing stalling speed than flaps on many similar GA airplanes. To prove this to yourself, look up the Vs0 and Vs1 speeds (calibrated) for various airplanes. (Or, find the other thread where I did this). 5. The primary purpose of flaps is not to slow down. However, they do create drag. Should you forget to raise flaps after takeoff, your first indication may well be in inability to attain cruise speed. 6. There is no mechanism in any Mooney to raise the flaps in the event of an overspeed. Skip

You mean like the L3 ESI-500?

Well, it is a two person job in my plane which involved the aforementioned skinny kid that lives rent free in the house. Given strict instructions not to put any pressure on any of the tubes he was a huge help. Everything went back together and it was working great, spinning faster and smoother than previously. Sadly, it died completely, motor fried shortly after starting up for an evening sunset flight tonight so looks like it is going to have to be replaced.

Someone say Rocket?....lol

It's mostly the HP, but at the higher speeds the aerodynamic improvements kick in. A few years ago (probably 5) I flew my M20C side-by-side with a friend who owned an Ovation3. I did a write up back then but can't find it now. The interesting thing about it was not the speed, which of course the O3 won, but the fuel flows. As I recall, when we were both at 12 gal per hour, the Ovation was faster. At 10 gph, about the same; at 8gph, my C was faster. And then my friend threw the coals to his Ovation and left me like I was standing still!

O-300, aircraft lubricating engine.

I feel like the EIS is just not there yet for Garmin. I ended up going with a JPI 930.

Love the retro paint with 2 3 1

Thought some of you considering this upgrade might find interesting. Picked up plane on Friday after the ADS-b upgrade. Had GNS430 upgraded to WAAS for GPS source and installed a new GTX345. Paired up bluetooth on the iPad mini 2 with the GTX345 successfully and started the one hour flight home. I noticed Foreflight's screen was locked up after about 10 minutes into the flight and I could not zoom or move the screen. Also noticed iPad wouldn't calibrate straight and level from the GTX345 AHRS feed. Had other similar issues on the next flight with the combo such as the bluetooth link dropping out on Foreflight's devices page. Didn't spend a lot of time trying to trouble shoot in the air. Contacted Foreflight support and they know of problems with the bluetooth linkage and are working to try and get them resolved with Garmin. As a interim measure Foreflight support suggests to me that turning Bluetooth off in Settings page of the iPad Mini2 and then back on is a temporary fix but it will happen again until this issue is worked out. I don't know if other brands of EFB's are having similar issues maybe some of you can chime in on your combo's? Otherwise the GNS430w and GTX345 combo is working nicely together and wished I could have done it sooner. Bill

PTW great when the polar vortex is over I’m at KILG within shouting distance is you would like to check out a like new BRAVOGX I’ve had since basically new. 200 knots, 1000+ mile range 1040 useful load what’s not to like, unless your like the growing group busting on Mooneys

There are some well diggers next door, Ill go ask them how cold it is...

And I can use 2500 but I prefer not to. It’s not a big difference for cruise at all... As to useful load, so many ignore that fuel efficiency = fuel not required to be carried = useful load. Also, how much you can carry with full fuel is meaningless. I’d like all planes to be able to carry their useful load in fuel, minus say 180lbs. Then you pick how to use your load - range or payload... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you, great advice. I have read that the Bravo OH cost is in the 55-60k range. Does that seem right? What other engine maintenance issues/costs are there that stand out? How much turbo system maintenance is required? The big bore TCM engines seem to need new cylinders mid-TBO sometimes. What are the weaknesses of the Lycoming engines in the Bravos? I may be joining your ranks fairly soon...

Thank you. That is very helpful.

Not a for sale thread. Not stomping on an add- discussing market values of a given type of plane. If I'm wrong- then I'm wrong. Perhaps we're betting that b2002 isn't smart enough to look at controller and see multiple other FIKI aircraft that are better equipped with asking prices significantly less, but oh well. This is a discussion forum. Not a for sale forum. If that plane is really still on the market after 4 months, then we know it's over priced as it hasn't traded. Yep. That's me. If I'm wrong about that plane- fantastic. Someone will buy it @ $260K. For a FIKI airplane the Bravo is a better option than the A36- $50-100K cheaper too. Perhaps you would feel better if I just pointed here: 98 FIKI Bravo @ $199: https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/29619005/1998-mooney-m20m-bravo 90 FIKI Bravo @ 199: https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/26966469/1990-mooney-m20m-bravo No two planes are the same, but... sorry.

Aren't you another one of those shunned people?

we were just in Minneapolis last night and this morning. The temp was -38C at 8000'. This morning it was too cold for Type 4 deicer fluid. I did the walkaround in the suit coat and it was physically painful.

Side point - if you were ever thinking of wrapping your yokes in leather, now would be the time while you have that off. http://customizer.aerocomfort.com/wheel/choose

If you're concerned about FIKI, you should also consider climb performance once you get past 10,000 feet. The Bravo has it, the Ovation not so much. Getting out of ice asap is the first priority and sometimes that means a good rate of climb. Here's one for sale near you from a Mooneyspacer with a good pedigree :

If they’re dome head Cherrys, grind them off with a sanding drum and a dremel. Reinstall wirh CR3213-4-10 or close. Get the cherry grip gauge to know the length for sure.

This video is eye opening regarding "frontal area" as your constant. My interpretation is that the drag coefficient is far more important in assessing the efficiency rather than the frontal area. The frontal area makes a lot of sense in trying to market the efficiency of the plane, but the similar drag coefficients is far more relevant- see the last demo in the video comparing the frontal area of a wire versus the frontal area of an airfoil. It doesn't change that the Mooney is a more efficient airframe (assuming the drag coefficients in that article I linked are accurate), but the comparison is really much closer than it initially appears.

Many of our Owners Manuals / POHs only list a single Flap Speed. It seems some pilots try to justify a higher speed than listed for partial flap extension. Until this thread, I had nomidea . . . . Until I'm below the (only) Flap speed mentioned in my Owners Manual, I don't touch the flap switch.

Packed! [emoji1787] List of ingredients: 2 Person thermal tent Thermal blankets Compass Rain ponchos 50’ parachord Water purification kit Collapsing cups Sleeping bivvy Glow sticks LED strobe Fire starter kits (flint and waterproof matches) Carabiners (lightweight & climbing) First Aid Kit Signal mirror, whistle Camping stove Portable stove gas Camping pots Hunting knife Collapsing shovel Folding saw Hatchet Food is brought on day of flight PLB, flashlights, VHF radio in flight bag Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

KGPM-KIWS ATC thanked me for my PIREPS Cleared me to IWS and said “no traffic” maybe at the time there wasn’t at that exact second but man did the airport become wild as the clouds and fogs were burning off there were 7 planes licking their lips to take off solo student had just departed and a Debonaire came out of no where picked up my mom for her first time ever flying with me she gave me the stink eye for having a mustache KIWS - KOCH my best friend flew his 182RG (310HP engine so in theory could keep up with the E) from KDTN with his GF an old friend and her husband met us at KOCH. Husband is half owner of a 66 V-Tail Bonanza Then KOCH - KIWS dropped Ed off my mom KIWS-KGPM