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Please don’t ask me to think about how much it costs! Besides, I’m not very good with numbers.

I separate CapEx and OpEx. CapEx is the price of the plane and any upgrades I make or money I spend on improvements. OpEx are the recurring costs such as fuel, hangar rent, annual maintenance, other maintenance, nav subscriptions, etc. I flew approximately 250 hours last year. I have no idea how much I spent in either of the two categories last year. But all the bills got paid, so I guess we're ok for another year of this.

I think owners can be divided into two categories: Professional pilots who fly company equipment for work Amateur pilots who only get to fly if they're buying the fuel. I can't speak for the Pro's other than my brother who is an SWA Captain. He loves to fly my Mooney, but spends his own money on BMW cars, and a massive motorhome bus conversion. While I'm sure he loves to fly as much as I do, the company scratches just about all of that itch for him. For an amateur pilot who's only route to the left seat is to pay for it myself, there are many reasons for ownership that don't show up on the spreadsheet. In no particular order... Safety - flying the same airplane all the time means I know what it sounds like, what is feels like, what it smells like, and when it doesn't. I also know the plane's performance and capability intimately. I always knew who flew it last... me. Accessibility - the expensive activity that it is, flying has to take a back seat to my methods for funding life, i.e. the day job. Having to schedule flying around my schedule is one thing, scheduling it around a lot of other people's schedules, or a flight school's schedule, is just all too complicated and results in greatly reduced opportunity to fly. Even if I flew the same number of hours, as an owner, the hours are of higher quality as they fit perfectly/easily into MY schedule. Destinations - I'd guess that most Mooney aficionados like cross country flying. And we're not talking about FAA cross countries of 50 miles, but Mooney cross countries where when you stop for fuel you're still outbound. This often requires multi-day access to the plane, nights tied down in interesting locations, and possibly insurance considerations for flights across the boarders or to the islands. All non-issues for the airplane I own, but all layers of additional complexity or barriers for rented aircraft. Pride of ownership - granted not all owners actually fly as evidenced by the ramp queens slowly rotting into the ground, but for those owner flow aircraft that fly, they are typically in better shape than anything in the rental fleet. Ownership involves hanging out at the hangar, cleaning, upgrading, maintaining, etc. None of which we do for rental aircraft. Better airplanes - I have to laugh every time someone posts the question on this forum about where can they find a Mooney to rent... in their local area... we know there might only be two Mooneys for rental purposes in the whole country. Complex, high-performance, turbo, high altitude, cross country machines like ours, just don't exist in the rental fleet. Much like if your passion are Porsche 911's, you're just gonna have to buy one. It's about the only way you'll ever drive one. I'm sure others will come up with other reasons as well... But with the above considerations... if I can get within even 30% to 50% over the cost of renting, it's worth it for me to own. In my case, because I own, I fly a lot more. At just shy of 250 hours for 2018, I'm sure owning is cheaper than renting for me. BTW - I consider the CapEx value of the airplane, $120K, and the hangar I own, $45K, to be investments, not costs. Even if I'm losing money because they are underperforming compared to other investment vehicles or inflation, I fully expect to get the $120K + $45K back if I sold out. The other money I've spent on CapEx such as glass panel, and other upgrades... I might get 25% of that back. But it's not calculated as such. It's just spent.

“If you have to ask, darling, you can’t afford it.” And wrt Bob Belville’s analogy, thing one: I like it! And thing two, Exciting women are expensive. And thing three, we are so worth it. That goes double for beautiful airplanes.

If you really have to budget you shouldn't own an airplane.

Some of us aren't worried about resale value. The executor of my estate can deal with the tire kickers and naysayers. I'm concentrating on the qualifications to become a UFO, and to keep on flying my Mooney until then. Thanks to Bennett for setting such a great example!

Sorry to hear that your wife went through the boat ownership thing with you. That is like telling a woman you are going on a first date with that your serial rapist days are over. Hopefully you can convince her that airplane ownership is different. Instead of throwing money in the water, you’re throwing it in the air. [emoji1787] As others point out, pride of ownership, the ability to have access when you want and knowing the condition all of the time are great benefits. The downside is that you own the costs when you own and you just can’t throw the keys at the FBO anymore and say “it’s broke”. I am sure that I am paying more than renting, but I also eat lunch with a Pilot friend and hear the whining about the availability of the rentals at our airport. As for the financials, you have heard some clearly say they ignore certain costs. If your financial situation can allow that, great. If it can’t, it can become a pain point with the family when you are deciding whether Johnny is going to get braces or you are going to fix your plane. I look at ownership cost as all in. I count everything because if I didn’t own a plane, I wouldn’t have those expenses. Also, I do reserves because the money is clearly earmarked for an intended usage. If you need to rebuild an engine, it is nice to have saved up the money and know it’s covered. As long time owner, I flew a number of years with an avionics reserve that kept building up. In 2012 it allowed me to do this: Be realistic with your finances. I can’t tell you the number of times we have had people post here about buying a plane and then a few months later are dealing with huge financial hits. And on other side of this, you only live once. And unless you plan on being buried in a gold (or gold lined) coffin, enjoy the ability to own and participate in something that most people never get to do. How many people can say they are able to fly a plane and capture a picture like this? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

On another forum, a guy tested his TT a few weeks ago on his Archer.. The TT flew the whole approach, with hold, with landing reconfig, to 7-8 ft. in mild gusts, where he discoed the AP, pulled off the power and flared over the centerline ... Its very capable, and TT hope to get it tested for the cert to do it legally. Other priorities at this time though, like getting the STC for the Mooneys… With the Aspen E5 in the mix, if your ILS will talk to the Aspen, it will pass through the directions to the TT and it will track the ILS. Whatever you select on the Aspen, if it can display it, it will insert the data in the ARINC 429 data stream. The TT will follow these directions, not knowing or caring where they originate... What the TT does lack is IAS select for climbs and descents, a helpful feature in rough conditions at or near the higher alts where the aircraft may be running out of puff. You can "workaround" the lack of this feature (BTW the Garmin CAN do this, it has IAS select) by setting the "MinSpeed" in the TT to your Vy, and tweak the VS setting as you climb to "rarer air". >Not perfect, but close enough for a lot of us! Yup! Very close for many, including me! 95% of what the Garmin can do for half the cost. Nav

My boys were renting substandard equipment for $127/hr back in 2016. I sold the idea of aircraft ownership to my wife based on idea that I could operate a nicer/mechanically sound aircraft for less than $127/hr. I purchased a 1964 M20C (35K) and my boys flew it 200hrs in 13 months. I kept every receipt related to the aircraft.... Insurance Monthly tie down Pre Purchase Inspection / Air fare to inspect aircraft Annual / carburetor O/H Fuel / Oil changes FBO Ramp/custom fees Taxes Total expenses were $18,500 working out to $93/hr. Please note this does not include engine or maintenance reserves....20-25/hr? In my experience it was totally worth the time and effort I spent owning the plane..just hope I have the same experience with our newer J model!! Hope this helps. Hank

When it comes to Aviation there is a very short list of subjects where I know more than you do Byron- extremely short. You’re incorrect on this one. I know his fees, and I know the value he provides for that fee. I’m not saying Neal and Jimmy can get together on this deal, but saying it won’t work to have 2 brokers in a deal, because there are two brokers involved in a deal, Is wrong. If Neal is working with a client looking for a TN A36 there’s a 90% chance Neal will call on it anyway- and I don’t expect he’ll ask the listing broker for a cut of the action. He could have easily picked up a few on both sides of my purchase, but he didn’t. He plays it straight. Guess who gets my business when I sell?

now you are making me sad. My little F was only 31.5. I put another (Im sure my wife can tell you) in it but it flew day VFR no problem for 31.5. This was a few years ago. I think Im doing my 3rd annual this month.

Your best option would be to trade up to the Stec3100... but it's just a few months away yet.

Could t find anything suitable, so I made my own...

Haha - that made my day. If anyone near Manhattan want to experience the joys of renting a hangar as a man-cave and would like a plane inside it to complete the look and feel - let me know. For lets say a mere $100 a month fee to you, I'll come park mine in there.

Boats: I LOVE time spent in, on, and under water. But a stroll past our local marina is discouraging. So many, a vast majority, of nice trawlers and once-loved sailboats haven’t been out of the slip in a decade or more. Covered with mildew and barnacles,, tied with frayed lines, brightwork unvarnished in maybe ever. Airplanes: At least a higher percentage of our local airport’s planes seem to be flown, inspected, and washed from time to time, than those bedraggled yachts.. Many of them actually leave the pattern, if only for pancakes or barbecue somewhere nearby.

I live over at the creek with one. I am a bit busy over the next week but would be happy to take you up in mine .......

I have not listed it yet. Have a few inquiries based on this posting. I don't even have a spec sheet completed on it yet. I need to figure out what I have first then I will start the process in earnest. You guys have been a big help so far. Thanks to all!

So a buddy of mine put in contact with a M20C Ranger owner. He is going to show me around the plane and I'll see if I am in fact comfortable in the airplane. If all goes well and the plane is still on the market tomorrow, I'll be putting money down on it. Thanks for all your help, its greatly appreciated.

I spent several years working out whether my C model was doing ok or not. I always felt it was slow compared to the book. Then I installed an Aspen which delivers TAS all the time. First thing I got was this: 6500 ft, WOT, 2500 RPM and 9.8 GPH, leaned to 50°f ROP. Now that is not how I usually fly, my usual regime is WOT, 2300 RPM and LOP which gives me some 145 kts at this altitude. You can calculate, do math, most of the time our gauges are not accurate enough to really give proper TAS values. If at all, you need to have all parameters available and calculate using the E6B app or something like this, which most of the time is not ideal either. The Aspen (and other EFIS including an ADC) will deliver pretty straightforward TAS which is quite accurate. Or you can do the 4 way ground speed test Bob Kromer used to do for the planes he tested for mooney. His M20C test is here. In the end, what you need to do is "testfly" your particular airframe and note down the values regularly, then you can see how much it differs from the poh and update your flight planning app with correct figures. However, what I have found is that while the POH is quite optimistic in top speeds, it becomes much more realistic when you look at more normal values such as fixed percentage power (55/65/75%) which does take a bit of numbercrunching but it comes out not bad usually. Also you need to take into account that all speeds in the POH are ISA, which hardly ever exists. So you need to always know your DA as well to be able to say whether your plane is close to POH or not. It is also interesting to calculate the sweet spots for your plane, that is where speed, range and economy deliver the best bang for buck. And to know the high-speed cruise, economy cruies, best range cruise parameters. These don't come in the POH listed as such, you need to read them out of the performance tables and figure them out. Lots of work but also lots of fun.

Ok, that worked. Looks like if I open the crop/rotate tool, rotate it back and forth, it gets saved in the correct orientation.

We have a J in the Seattle area. Four of us share the airplane which makes it much more affordable. And we keep it in an open hangar. Not as secure as an actual hangar but it keeps the plane out of the sun and rain. With that in mind we spend about: $1500 on insurance $3000 on the hangar $2500 on the annual $300 on GPS database $200 on registration etc. That's $7500/year just to own the plane whether we fly it or not and assuming nothing breaks. In reality, we charge ourselves $250/month each which covers our fixed expenses and repairs and allows us to build up a fund for improvement. That's $12,000/year (but only $3000 for me). We charge ourselves $30/hour dry to cover future engine overhaul, oil changes, prop overhaul, magneto service, etc. At cruise I burn 9.5 GPH to cruise at about 157 KTAS. Fuel around here costs about $5/gallon so operating costs come out to roughly $75 - $80/hour. You should consider costs one of two ways: cost/hour or cost/mile. If you are just building time (doubt it) then look at cost/hour. If you are going places, consider cost/mile. I fly about 60 hours/year although last year I flew about 85. At 60 hours my cost is ($3000/60) + $80 or about $130/hour. At 157 KTAS that's about $0.83/mile. But if I flew 100 hours/year my cost would only be $110/hour and $0.70/mile. If I owned the plane by myself it would be a lot more. But it isn't all about money. There are intangibles too. Comfort, scheduling, pride, ego, reliability, bragging rights, brand arguments, etc.

Best guess is that the resistance to ground has increased somewhere. Panel lights inside the cluster and the gauges appear to use the same return to ground according to my schematic. If there is resistance in the shared ground, turning up the lights will cause a voltage increase on the ground side of the gauges and decrease their indication. The ground is a wire from the connector on the cluster to a ground plug. Problem could be there or inside the cluster.

In a moment of clarity... I wrote a list of all the things box makers have done wrong... 1) Then I organized it... 2) Put Numbers next to it... 3) It looked like a top ten list from any other day... So I Let it sit, unsent for a dozen hours.... 4) Then I saw the Avidyne boxes that Alan Fox listed for sale... All that capability, for so few AMU... 5) Things that would help make my ship be 2020 ready... 6) Then I realized complaining about the box manufacturers gives us something to do on a really slow night... 7) Pick the one you like the most, today... write something good about them... 8) If something broke or doesn’t work, write about how you got it fixed... 9) Mom always said... ‘if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all...’ 10) Mom must have wanted me to be a sales guy.... 11) Keep in mind we get some support from the various box suppliers and installers. If we bash them endlessly, they tend not to visit again... 12) Hey, that reminds me... if you want to promote the GTN... go to BT... that’s where big G prefers to lend an ear... 13) Big G stopped visiting here for a reason... yes I know Trek and I know how to find him... 14) everybody has a bad day. It’s how we overcome the issues is what counts... 15) imagine a box manufacturer’s bad day... they can last for months (or years) until a reliable fix can be enabled... 16) I look forward to the efforts companies put in to fix the problems that always arise... Briefly, try to avoid bashing vendors and suppliers... it works against us as a community. if you need to vent... add some clarity... I’m only venting.... (A new MSer wrote this the other day...) Thinking about the MS community today... we need each other, and the support we get from vendors... Best regards, -a-

I have never heard of a Garmin 325 transponder. They make a GTX320, a GTX327, a GTX330, a GTX335 or a GTX345. Also I've never heard of a Garmin 325 audio panel. The Garmin GMA340 is a common audio panel. It looks like that's what you have. Very nice panel on your C model by the way.

Then after you figure out all of that, divide it by the number of hours you expect to fly on an annual basis and compare that to the cost of renting. It's not perfect, but will give you a ballpark figure to try and compare it against. Factor in the convenience of just going to the airport on a whim and finding your pride and joy sitting there waiting for you....and only you. Priceless.... I got tired of trash in the rental planes and the questionable maintenance. Also got tired of getting blasted via mass emails when something happened to cause a tire to be replaced or the brakes being ridden to hard, etc, etc, etc... That was a long time ago and I won't rent again unless it's totally unavoidable. Brian

All I require is altitude hold and heading. That will reduce my work load enough on longer cross country flights and I’ll hand fly the approaches. I don’t do enough IFR flight to justify the added expense for more features. David

I’m not sure what all this talk about O2 and kids is. My son has turned out fine even though he flew for years with me and without supplemental oxygen. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Adding to @Danb comment, typical airliners are at 8k foot pressure inside, and small children fly 11-12 hour intercontinental flights (usually in the seat right behind me) without ill effects or concerns of ill effects.

If you mean it has a GTX330 transponder and a GNS530 but the non WAAS version... and that's a good thing? Give me just a minute... I've got a list around here somewhere...

Haha. As much as it may appear that way, its not very profitable yet as I'm still spending a lot each month on facebook ads and other ways of advertising. But I think of all this as just start up costs, laying a foundation and such. Sure is fun though. Thanks!

I keep meaning to send you your official shunning notification! Considered yourself shunned you oil sniffer! BTW - we are due for a fly in. I’ll drop something on the Yahoo site so we can practice our shunning when you show up. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

UPDATE: Sorry I've been inactive on here the last few months! I still do check up every now and then to read through the latest posts but WingSwap has been keeping me very busy! Managing the social media accounts (main traffic funnel), getting new users, working with the developer, talking with advertisers, etc... Last I update you guys we had about 90k pageviews a month, and now we are up to 250k pageviews a month! It has been hard getting people to list their planes with the Premium and Featured listings, even though they were just $10 and $20 respectively. SO what I've done is changed things up a bit. Going forward, listing will be free, with 10 pictures and 1000 characters allotted, and your listing will be live for 60 days. I've found higher traffic and advertising revenue is far more worthwhile than $10 dollars here and there, and most people being frustrated when listers just had one picture up in their free listings. So I'm giving the people what they want. All the pictures and information you could want, for free. You can still purchase a featured spot on the website or our instagram (over 12k pilot followers now btw) but now going forward both listers, and browsers should be totally happy. And btw a sweet mooney M20E with 201 speed mods and a crazy Garmin panel and recently overhauled engine was listed an hour ago I thought you all might like. $77k asking. (seller approved me sharing here) So yeah thats where things are currently with WingSwap! The busy-ness just doesn't end! But thats good right? Must mean I'm doing something right! I've heard some great stories from owners who found their plane on wingswap which really makes me feel good when they send pictures of them and their new plane! Jesse

Only a single data point, but possibly worth mentioning. My son and I climbed one of Colorado's 14k ft. peaks the summer after he finished kindergarten. We acclimated a few days at 6-8k and spent the night before at 10k. Upon reaching the summit, he couldn't remember his age, his birthday, or how to spell his name. I realized it was time to quickly get down the mountain. He's a teenager now and I swear the brain damage from that trip is starting to show!

I was told there would be no math.............. also, @GH3 in order to NOT put any of us old guys into cardiac arrest....around these parts we refer to currency in AMU's and not dollars.... Having said that, I have attached an operating cost spreadsheet that Merl Perry (Mooney owner on this site and fellow Navy brother) generated. Play around with the numbers as you do research in your area for hanger, insurance, etc. You can add what you think your annual flight hours might be then compare your operating cost to renting for a relatively objective analysis. It also spits out nice graph if you need to generate a powerpoint for your wife.... However as stated already...subjectively there is nothing better than going out to your hanger and playing in your personal private club house - maybe do a quick flight, saturday afternoon lunch on a whim, stopping by after work to just give the cowl and prop a quick coat of polish or leaning over to your wife on Monday night and say..."hey, lets fly to Boston or Chicago this weekend to see a baseball game and our son"......non owners will never understand..... Operating costs.xlsx

I went the same direction and bought a cheap F. I'm 1.5 years into ownership, completed 2 annuals, repaired a lot of stuff, upgraded some stuff, and still don't have $46.5 in the plane. I'll never have the glass panels and high end gizmo's that the upper end planes have, but it gets me from point A to B fast and efficiently! Plus, the lower operating cost (compared to renting) has allowed me to build hours at about 3 times the rate I was before I bought her.

Thanks for all the advise. I will make some calls tomorrow. Since I own it, I am only interested in the bottom line. My preference is still to take a nice Mooney on trade, but, hey, cash is good. This aircraft appears to be in very good shape, mechanically and cosmetically. 1979 model. Probably a 180-185K plane. 530W with GTX-345. Strikefinder. KFC-200. Good Paint. Two year old cloth interior. TT just over 5000. Engine about 950. Near zero oil consumption. All compressions over 70 (at Maxwell's yesterday). Again, thanks for giving me the ideas on Neal and BT.

I have it mounted with a Helmet Side mount from GoPro at the top leading edge of the vertical stabilizer. I'm 6'5", so it's easy to reach that high. I'll snap a picture of it next time I'm at the airport.

It’s a major upgrade from the Britain wing leveler.

Sure doesn't stop them from screaming and kicking the seat in front of them

Yep, "forever" airplanes are in a whole different category where the rules don't apply. And that immunity to resale value works both directions. Some don't spend any money on their planes and eventually they don't fly anymore and slowly sink into the grass at some random field. The value of the plane reduced to zero. Other's spend with abandon, i.e. @Marauder and @Bob_Belville, knowing they'll have to get the value out of it by flying, because they'll never get all the investment back out in a sale. I like to think I own a "forever" airplane as well. Then there's @KLRDMD who probably doesn't do anything without an eye toward the resale value.

Love that turboprop sound- takes me back to my T-34C day’s....

Hard to say. MP just means the pistons are going up and down, so you can't use that as a gauge of engine health. If you think there is a power problem it comes down timing, compression and valve lift. Has the airplane ever performed better? How long have you had it? How much time is on the engine? Are all your cylinders firing? Too bad our engines don't have gearboxes like the old radials. Then we would have a torque meter and a direct readout of power.

Same. BT does have a Babble Talk section for non-related discussions, but the Jeff's carry a pretty big stick and politics are a no-no that will get yourself put in the penalty box if you violate the rules. Anything else goes. It has come in handy because there is a lot of experience on the forum in just about all fields of work. Ask a question about household electric issues and someone will be able to help. Need help with tax or legal questions, plenty of those professional types there too. It can be a handy place to ask questions. One thing I love about their site is you can "ignore" topics that you're not interested in and it helps cut down the noise when reviewing recent posts. Makes it a lot easier to follow the discussions that I'm interested in. Wish Mooneyspace had that feature. I gave up on POA about 3 years ago after a few "all knowing" types took over and started policing everyone's operations. Cheers, Brian

It is easy to go crazy with this topic, you could have an aircraft in for an oil change and during the oil change you note the owner flew the airplane 300 hours since the last annual, there is an AD on something or several things that require 100 hour inspections. An AD isn't done based on the annual inspection but IAW the requirements stated in the AD, you tell me does the fact that aircraft is not in annual change the fact the AD is overdue and the aircraft is not airworthy because of it? the simple fact is both pilots and A&Ps have to use good and reasonable judgement. just because a problem is found outside of annual doesn't mean it can be ignored, and at the same time just because a brake disk is .001 below doesn't make it unsafe to fly home and schedule the work for another day. I will tell you that if I saw you were missing your right wing and told you but did nothing to document it or keep you from flying the lawyer your wife hires to sue me will be telling the jury it was all my fault because there is no proof I told you about it and you were too experienced of a pilot to have made a mistake.

It is amazing how easy some fixes are — provided you know where to find the answer. I still do the airborne VOR tests per 91.171 and love seeing the digital radios consistently showing 0 degree differences. The first couple of times this happened, I went to a VOT to confirm I wasn’t seeing things. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

This plane was posted on the Vintage Mooney FB page by its owner David Sturgis. First time I have seen a paint job like this, Obviously, this is not an original scheme.

Oh No!Chem Trails!Dont you know what this means?The govt is trying to give us cancer or sterilize us!I know this for a fact!Oh OH...a big black suv just pulled up outside my office...there coming for me....good buy Mooney space....

Probably because your picture went inverted.

I just assumed it was the wind shaking the camera. Mooney's are fast, ya know.