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Both pilots worked together and did a fantastic job in bringing this emergency to a successful conclusion. But don't think that they are the exception. Every time you get on an N registered carrier, certainly a major, you've got seasoned experts up front. They practice engine failures and depressurization scenarios routinely in the simulator. Many have a military background. While these two pilots should be commended for their professionalism I would submit that almost 100 percent of the crews out there would also perform at this level. You're in good hands Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

For one thing it's Busch. If "drinking his Kool-Aid" refers to using Savvy Aviation expertise and being grateful for @kortopatescontributions to this space then there are a great many Kool-Aid drinkers here, including me.

Your mechanic doesn't know his a** from a hole in the ground. Glazing is usually a result of poor break-in. Your cylinder temps are perfect. edit: was that worded too strongly?

I have a copy of The Al Mooney Story by Gordon Baxter. On page 149 it reads that Al left Kerrville in 1955 to work for Lockheed. The M-20A was introduced in 1958. Later it reads, "In 1960, Ralph Harmon, formerly of Beechcreat, Cessna and McDonnell, joined Mooney Aircraft. Harmon metallized the wood-winged airplane, creating the M-20B in December 1960." I also have a hard copy of Larry Ball's Those Remarkable Mooneys. In part it reads Al stayed around until September 1955 when his M20 was certificated, although the M20 prototype first flew on September 3, 1953. I love reading about Al and Art. I just wish that they had have been successful at operating Mooney from a business perspective. It's not fair their most successful design, the M20 ended up out of their hands following certification. I also wish I had the privilege of meeting them both. Their legacy lives on.

Sadly I think the cost of ownership is the least of GA's problem. IMHO there just isn't the interest in flying as there was 30 plus years ago. GA has been on life support for a long time so for many of us it's been a long time since it was the way we know it. I'm just thankful that I had the interest as a kid growing up and that it never left me as an adult. I can tell you without a doubt after seeing that new Ultra at Paso Robles and then it's flight on Flight aware if I had the means there is no way I would even think of a Cirrus as a choice That Ultra is a beautiful machine I think they will be very strong in the market as things ramp up. And one never knows it could just be a matter of six numbers played. We can all dream.

Since the ATC recordings are available to the public, I think the part that is catching everyone's attention is the tone of her voice is on the radio, but you're right, the team should get credit. It just doesn't come across on the ATC recordings very well. When you listen to the CVR recordings of Sullenberger and Skiles, it's impressive how little they actually say, but what they do say showed how well they worked together.

Not necessarily. More than likely, she was flying while talking to ATC and the FO was working the problem, communicating with the company and FA's, and getting ducks in a row for the landing. It torques me a little that the press never gives credit to BOTH pilots... ever. Yes, she did a great job, but she wasn't alone. This is a crew airplane. Side note: I have flown with her as her FO a few years ago. She was cool to fly with and very competent.

Not a flight but some hangar time yesterday. I went straight there after work, got started about 7pm, called it quits at 11pm, and will finish up stuff Saturday morning. Changed the oil. (Still need to cut open the filter) Replaced the gasket on the oil fill tube that was leaking. The old one was hard and brittle but I think this will take care of that pesky leak. Cleaned and rotated the plugs. Took a look around in the cylinders with the borescope. Checked to oil screen. This is the first time I have done this myself and it is the beast that everyone has said it is and was probably 2 hours of my time with about 1.5 of that spent on the stupid safety wire. I can think of about 20 different things they could change in the way everything fits down there that would have made it a lot easier to safety wire it. After doing it this time I learned a few things and could probably cut that time significantly next time. The screen was clean with a couple little black flecks that crumbled when rubbed between my fingers so I am assuming carbon? Still to do Check water levels in battery Ground run then check for leaks Button everything back up and go have some fun

And this level of professionalism is what we, as good stewards of GA and as Mooney pilots, should strive for in our own flying. This begins with our approach to ownership, preflight, proper use of lights, checklists, etc. Please do not settle for sloppiness or less than perfection in your duties as PIC, consider training often and constantly improve your proficiency. We are the weakest link in an accident scenario yet we are the ones we spend the least amount on.

Trying to justify Mooney is charging more today for an Acclaim than what inflation says it should be based on your 1965 E model is rather silly. They are completely different products. Mooney spends well over 100K for the Garmin NXI boxes alone or 20+ first class round trips to Europe. Continentals chunk of the price is in excess of 100K also. Obviously, new Ultras and Acclaims are not for those that are not in an economic position to fly one, just as the SR22T is not, or the Cezzzna's, TBM's etc. That said, Mooney sold 2 the first 2 days of SNF, and there will be more orders follow from the event. These gentlemen who purchased them are not dumb, nor ignorant of pricing and Mooneys. IF someone spent 900K on a new Acclaim, I am unaware of it. Can the person claiming this step up and let us know who? Yes they are high priced, but they are less than a Cirrus. Unfortunately, like many of you, they are out of my price range, but thats my problem, not Mooney's.

Iain, don’t give up yet. It might take three or four power cycles to recognize the 6 cylinders. And try putting the FF switch in different positions before powering up. Finally, get into the second level of programming (factory limits), and see if there is a 4/6 cylinder setting like the EDM800’s. Aerodon

Expect the corrosionX to seep out for at least six months or more... it’s a sign of it doing its work...covering everything to the last molecule.... unfortunately, it looks similar to smoking rivets while it does this seeping thing. I used maguires cleaner wax to clean the CX off. The cleanerwax is probably not recommended as it removes a layer of paint with it... My old C would be jealous of the well kept Cs around here... her last significant upgrade was a Loran... Best regards, -a-

In that case, I did it right this year.

Just a couple of items to add- Mooney has a laminar flow wing back to about the 40% chord line IIRC. Piper Comanche and Twin Comanche also have a laminar flow about the same IIRC. Laminar flow is where the boundary layer of air stays attached to the wing surface for an extended period of time as it flows aft toward the trailing edge. Generally these wing airfoils have a more streamlined thinner shape than say the airfoil on a Cessna wing. Full laminar flow would stay attached all the way to the trailing edge. Very difficult to achieve. As far as Mooney wing strength goes, the same engineer that designed the Bonanza wing designed the Mooney wing. If you recall, several Bonanzas were lost to wing failure early on and many "fixes" were incorporated into later Bonanza wings to strengthen them. When Al Mooney hired that engineer to design the metal wing on the Mooney the engineer would only accept the job if Al let him design it the way he wanted as he said he didn't want to have another design coming apart because Walter Beech kept having him "lighten" the structure to save weight. That is why we have such a strong wing in a Mooney.

NOPE.

Dang good looking spinner, Dave! And a most un-C-like nise behind it, too. Now keep her looking sharp like this . . . .

New partner in a '65 M20E Super21 based in Massachusetts. I'm working towards complex sign-off while transitioning from C172s. The wealth of knowledge, active participation, varied opinions and factual references make this site a treasure trove for someone ramping on their aircraft knowledge and flying skills. Thank You! Dave

Home, James....

Chesley “Sully" Sullenberger, Tammie Jo Shults and more to come. Profesdionals performing flawlessly under pressure and saving the day. These pax don’t know how lucky they were to have Captain Shults do what she had to do and bring them down safely. She had said on flying it gives her the opportunity “to witness Christ on almost every flight.”

I thought it might be a good idea for all of use to introduce ourselfs. Who you are, where your from, what type of Mooney (or other aircraft) you own/fly.... I'll start I'm Adam, I usually cruise the AOPA boards but I am glad to finally have a place to turn to for Mooney talk! I own a 1967 M20F, the 7th one of the line, Turbo Normalized. I've had it a little of a year now and I've been stuck on Moonies ever since...I'm based out of Orlando FL, KORL, and if any of you get down this way let me know and we can grab a drink and share some stories...

A quick search of things that will dissolve moly indicates that most of them would dissolve the shirt first.

Yes, its missing and using the arm should work. Inspect it over the prop controls full range afterwards to make sure it's ok.

Mike Busch has some good information for owners/pilots. Being a professional A&P, I don’t agree with him on some things though. That may be why there are differing opinions. Mike is after all trying to make money.

Fantastic info! Really helpful....at this point, my plan to to clear through the Bahamas and stay on one of the islands for a few days...then San Juan for a couple weeks in an Airbnb.....on down to St Lucia for another week or so airbnb then Grenada for a week or two airbnb. Stops in between for fuel but at $100/landing, I will have to be judicious. My wife really wants to pop over to Curacao and I figured once there, it would be better to come home via Central America rather than retrace our steps. Would I be wise to stay away from Central Am? We have spent a fair amount of time flying down in Baja with no problems but only limited time in mainland Mexico. Obviously, I plan on avoiding Venezuela entirely but would likely have to stop in Columbia for fuel/rest...Panama, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras and Guatemala are total unknowns to me.

Don’t drink the Mike Bush Kool-Aid! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are correct, when I was going through the options on the unit it didn't exactly say that on the display, but the manual does:

The investigation will reveal who was flying and who did what on that SW jet. However, it takes nothing away from the captain if she never touched the controls. If it was the FOs leg, she may well have had him continue flying all the way through landing. As pilots, we tend to think that the "hero" was, like Sully, the pilot who was moving the controls, but often the "hero" was the non-flying pilot who keeps the crew working together and manages all the resources. For those who have seen Capt. Al Haynes' (a master of CRM) presentation on his handling of the DC-10 Sioux City accident, he said he made the greatest mistake in his aviation career when he said, "my controls", then he made the best decision of his career when he said, "your controls". Al Haynes' presentation is an aviation classic and should be viewed by every pilot. If I can find the Youtube link, I'll post it in case someone has not seen it. About 34 mins is where Al makes his famous quote.s

Iain, I see you still have it on the bench - you need to plug it into a 6 cylinder harness and then it will recognize all 6 cylinders. Don

Great first post Ja! I enjoy people posting in agreement. Your liked post to ordinary post ratio is at a very high level of 1:1... keep up the good work! Best regards, -a-

Had same issue with my tac last year. Pulled old cable measured it and ordered new one and it is smooth as silk now. To make sure it wasn’t the tac I was able to rotate the tac and see it was working properly. This occurred after a some costly repairs and wasn’t in the position to upgrade to digital. Mechanical works just fine.

Since the captain was talking on the radio and obviously managing the problem, was the copilot doing the PF (pilot flying) duties?

Yeah but all those people were 5’5” or less and max 125 lbs each!

thats not a life limit, its an inspection interval.

She was incredibly calm, when she acknowledged the handoff from Approach to Tower she told the controller, good day.

The airplane had over 7000 hours on it, so a design flaw would have shown up a lot earlier, and would be exhibited in other aircraft of the same type. Since the airplane wasn't anything close to new, had changed hands a few times, and had a LOT of hours on it, the storage, use, and maintenance history can play a big part in the condition of the aircraft. It is far more likely that the airplane had an age- or storage- or maintenance-induced- or whatever- related condition that had been missed in previous inspections. It's not like that hasn't happened before, to any make or type of aircraft, including Mooneys, including Mooney cases that have been archived here.

Yes. our spar is built from many pieces, riveted solidly together into one piece. Piper spars are similarly built from many pieces into three large pieces that bolt together, designed to be removable. The failure was at the bolt location . . . which we don't have. Spar design is different; the built up shape is different; size, number and location of rivets is different; otherwise, just say they are both low wings and can both fail like this. But ours won't, there are no bolt holes, no wear from removing a single wing panel, no stress concentration at the wing joint bolts, no possibility of a wing joint bolt being overtorqued and causing problems, nor loosening and damaging the hole, etc., etc., etc. I am sorry for these guys . . . an awful thing to happen on a beautiful day to fly.

The Flytenow decision was about holding out. there are multiple prongs on the part 135 rules, and holding out to any and all comers is one of them. If they had a section in the NY times, that said "I am flying to Miami on the 25th, I will accept ride/expense sharing from anyone that calls 1-201-555-1212 it would also have not passed that test. The decision didn't draw a line but said that attempting to provide services to a wide enough groups of people who have no other link to you will be considered holding out. The web application for that, and nothing else just made the scope obvious. The decision said it didn't need a specific app, and that a large facebook group would qualify... broadcast to your FB knitting group about sharing a ride to the Wisconsin convention... allowed... saying on the east coast travelers board "I'm going to Miami".. probably not. A community like ours would probably be allowed, only because we are pilots.. like we ask for "who is going to Dmax".. we have that limited nexus that keeps it from being holding out. This is echoed in the part91 dry leases vs part 135 charter... you can be 91 and have a number of limited contracts for flying, but as soon as you imply that you will contract with anyone who calls your phone#, then it isn't limited and is considered holding out.

no, Alan inspects the electronics closely, and that includes a cat scan.

Call my shop Tomorrow an ask for Katie. Give her your address an she will Ups you a Mounting ORing 870-208-8882

What I learn from that, is that's most likely exactly what caused it. We are all susceptible to "I've done this hundreds of times unscathed, I can do it again". But maybe not with a tailwind, or an unexpected wind gust or a distraction on the ground or in the cockpit or on a day that you just aren't 100%. 99 out of 100 is great in most endeavors, except flying. I feel more comfortable with a higher margin of safety. There are a lot of things we can't control, but what field we base at we can control. I also choose to base at an airpark, but the runway is 3800 feet long and 80 feet wide. Do I need it to be that long? Not most of the time, but if a few of my pilot imperfections surface that day along with something unexpected, I have a better chance of getting it stopped safely.

Dogs are a real danger to cyclists. And cars. But in particular cyclists when they run out and want to attack you they are just as likely to crash you. A fellow here crashed going down a hill when an unleashed dog ran out at him and he broke several bones. I met another fellow a few years ago who had an unleashed dog run out at him in front of his front wheel to attack him and he flipped and broke his neck. He was several years in rehab but luckily while he was temporarily paralyzed it did not break his spinal cord and he eventually was able to walk again - but never the same as before. I have been "chased" by dogs on country roads many times - and mind you - paved public roads where there is no sign that I am about to be assaulted and my life endangered. The danger is no joke. That Mississippi law is bizarre.

I see people complaining about the price , If 32 dollars is too much , don't go , in fact you should sell your plane and take up golf , much cheaper.....The money supports the EAA , without them , you couldn't afford to fly (most of you) , it supports all kinds of aviation charities....... GROW UP , If you don't want to pay that's fine , but stop crying like a child........What we do costs lots of money .....

I’ve attended Sun-n-fun since the mid 1980s and have witnessed a lot of change over the years. I was there today and was concerned going in that the windy and rainy weather at the beginning of the week along with the forecast of bad weather moving in on Sunday would impact the number of planes on display in the Vintage area. My concerns proved valid as the Vintage area was sparsely populated and a fair number of those still there, were packing up and leaving. It was disappointing but not unexpected. There did also seem to be fewer vendors and aircraft on display than in years past. The homebuilt field, once heavily populated with dozens of rows of airplanes, was mostly empty. A mere shadow of what it once was. It’s hard to quantify why this has occurred. A number of factors may be impacting the show. Weather certainly plays a role. Attendance may well be cyclical. When the show was held earlier in the Spring, perhaps there was more attendance from those wishing to escape the Winter up North. When the Vintage airplanes were featured on the main Flightline, more vintage aircraft were in attendance. The move towards featuring the homebuilts impacted their attendance. The year they burned the grass in the Vintage parking area led to many showplanes being covered with black soot every day, repeatedly, didn’t help. I overheard a guy with a beautiful Piper Pacer, a past Champion no less, state that he would never return. He was tired of cleaning off his airplane all day long. They haven’t burned the grass since. I’ve heard others complain about the cost of admission. They can fly to a number of smaller fly-ins with less hassle, good food and have a good time at a lower cost. Maybe that is what folks are doing these days. Or maybe we’re witnessing the effects of a declining pilot population as the greatest generation of American pilots has largely left us and the succeeding generations are smaller still. Or maybe the fact that in 1966 you could purchase a brand new Piper Cherokee 140 for about three times the cost of a new car but in 2018 a brand new Cessna Skyhawk will cost you about ten times the cost of a new car and don’t even ask about the other airplanes. I do not know the answer. I am glad that I went. I enjoyed seeing the airplanes that I saw but I was disappointed. Coupled with the fact that I spent most of my time there thinking about and missing my Dad. We used to look forward to Sun-n-Fun every year and attended most years we lived here. It was not the same. I did not enjoy myself...to be honest...but I will return next year.

I certainly don't mean to be insulting to you or anyone else here. I should probably impose a "no posting after mid-night" rule on myself. This community truly is such a wealth of information and what I've learned from all of you has been priceless. I certainly understand different missions, different budgets, and different priorities. But it's painful to see so many on this forum who have passed up the $45K Mooney in favor of a $35K Mooney that has good bones and are now trying to figure out how to upgrade or even just replace/repair simple things like radios, autopilots, gps, etc. and come to the painful realization that it will cost $20K - $30K to do it.

Good news is that you have an excellent engine monitor to help exclude a number of things. The probes are likely fine but its worth a quick swap of #2 for #4 to make sure. Make sure you are getting somewhere close to 18gph FF at full power under standard conditions. It's probably not the issue, but it's trivial to look. The carb can be the culprit. Make sure doghouse is as tight as you can get it. Plug every hole. I think mine is made of more RTV than aluminum at this point. Change the baffle seals at the front if needed. The areas around the starter and alternator can be a real pain because the bottom cowl has to be dropped. Consider all other possible high CHT reading causes, including induction leaks, mag timing, exhaust leaks blowing on the probe. The engine monitor can provide a lot of info in this regard. You may have to delve into it yourself however, as some A&Ps are not versed in looking at this type of data. Savvy has a paid service that will help analyze if you're not experienced at looking at this stuff. It's worth a try climbing at WOT instead of 26-squared because pulling the throttle back disengages the carb enrichment circuit. However this benefit of WOT is questionable in the minds of many C model owners including this one. I can't tell the difference in my subjective experience. Pulling back to 25-squared after getting away from the ground may run cooler. There was a nice discussion on another recent thread about the enrichment circuit and how it works, when it helps, and when it doesn't. I saw 450 in climb for the first time this winter after looking at all these issues, but it was after a long ground run pending an IFR release on a training flight. If you can't keep temps below 350ish on the ground, you're gonna have problems early in climb regardless, particularly in the summer. You may go through all this troubleshooting only to throw your hands up and accept that C models have a crappy cowl design that makes them run hot. My #2 is the problem child in cruise - always running 20-30 hotter in cruise than the rest and preventing me from leaning to best economy. The fuel injected, angled valve brethren do much better with this issue across the board. In my mind, the only C model owners who don't have CHT issues are the ones who don't have an engine monitor to detect them

Here is another polished Mooney to add to the list. Just finished a three month annual/avionics upgrade. 1968 M20F turbo normalized.

Brown aircraft Supply makes them as well. They are my go to place for high quality odd ball gaskets. You won’t find them at spruce etc as they are all too think. -Matt

He could bring one of Marauder's girls!

I know something about the Lopresti cowling and the RayJay Turbo normalizer (M20 Turbos). The owner of the Moultonboro NH airport is an A&P who formerly worked for Lopresti. I spoke with him years ago when he had just moved to NH. He was working on a project to install a turbonormalizer on a Lopresti cowled airplane. They had to keep enlarging the inlet holes to allow more air in to get the plane to run cooler. It apparently was a lot of work and I am not sure he ever got it to his satisfaction. I believe this is the history which leads the recommendation of no turbos with the Lopresti cowling. John Breda

Well it's been over a year and a half since I polished her and finally decided she was looking fairly dull. You can see the difference in the one picture of before and after polishing. Time for a repolish - makes me feel like the Karate Kid! LOL!