Leaderboard

UPDATE: Was able to go out to the plane today after a great Easter Holiday with the family and inspect the issue. After reading your comments, I am very thankful to be able to be here after what could have been bad. I first removed the inspection panel but nothing visible we could tell besides the soot aft of the access panel on the cowl as shown in the picture above. We continued to remove the cowl and my mechanic just happen to stop by the airport to drop something off to a hanger neighbor. Great timing! We got the cowl off and no visible signs of anything on the inside of the cowl - nothing burnt or discolored as evidence of anything - to the cowl. After a quick look at the turbo and V-Band clamps, all is tight and no indication of leaks or cracks which also confirmed my pre-flight check at the beginning of the day. All was very solid and in-tact. Following the exhaust up, we found the source pretty quick - it was the exhaust gaskets blown on #3 and #5. In fact the outboard exhaust stud and nut was missing from #3 completely. #5's outboard nut was backed out and not tight at all. It appears that these exhaust gaskets were the "no-blow" style as they were still in-tact but will not be re-used. Very lucky to not have caught fire or worse! We are ordering all new NUTs and Gaskets for all 6 cylinders even though we might only need to replace 3 sets of them and at least several studs to replace the missing ones and the ones that need to be replace for removal of the system. I have the part numbers for the Gaskets (630365) and the Nuts (22022) - "using two gaskets per exhaust port, concave sides together" per the Continental SB14-8. I need to find the replacement stud part number. Anyone have that manual digital for the TSIO-360-SB they could PM me? Or a link? My A&P that happen to be out at the airport on Easter Sunday and gave me an hour of his time to take a look said he has the manual in his office and could get it tomorrow. He said after replacement of these parts we would pressure test the exhaust system for leaks and compression check the jugs. I have learned some very good lessons in this deal and hope someone else does, too. Engine monitors are invaluable - trust what they are telling you and process the information to stay as safe as possible. Thank you everyone for your help in the opinions and insight into the possibilities of what could have been a lot worse.

I never thought any of the very good discussion on slipping seat rails was ever meant in the context of what MUST of happened to the pilot but merely a good possibility - as good as any of many possibilities. But one that brought up a very good discussion of how to be on guard for it. All very positive IMO and entirely appropriate since this is when folks are most interested in learning from what if possibilities. FWIW, I have had my seat pop out twice on takeoff. Luckily I had the benefit of exactly this type of discussion many years ago. It was from exactly such a discussion as this that I got educated on this issue well enough that I was prepared enough to stay safe. The best precaution IMO is as @Skates97 says above, be sure to actually push down on the seat locking mechanism to make sure it's in positively when you position your seat. Not just let it pop into position. Then secondly, and most importantly, make sure you let go of the yoke while your seat is slipping back to rear seat. As long as the aircraft is properly trimmed for takeoff, you'll only soil your underwear by the time you get your self back up front since a properly trimmed aircraft will be okay for a few seconds. But this underlines the importance of being properly trimmed for takeoff. But it was exactly one of these hypothetical discussion inspired by an accident that educated me enough to be prepared and I am sure this thread will likely save some one else in the future that wasn't aware of this till now and learns about this as I did. Just let go of the yoke as @MyNameIsNobody said above. (although I didn't understand the part on the releasing the seat belt since its attached to the seat - anyway I don't recall needing to undo the belt to pull myself back up front). I am a bit embarrassed it happened to me twice before I replaced all seat rails. But the first time I blamed it more on not having the seat positively locked into the holes. But the second time I realized the holes were just too rounded/worn. I didn't need further convincing with a third event and at the next annual I was down for weeks as I replaced all 4 seat rails which not an easy a job. Our seat rails do appear to be identical to Cessna's which have an AD that requires them now to be replaced on schedule of hours - no longer on condition with a go-no go gauge.

In my opinion, if we were discussing this with the press, or the public at large, our discussions about possible causes would probably be inappropriate. However, among our limited family of concerned flyers, I believe the potential benefit of these discussions far outweighs any potential harm.

That is silly Jim. Clearly this may not be what happened in this case but a slipping seat is a dangerous and possible failure mode that is easily prevented and this incident has raised the discussion. Why should we wait for an Ntsb report to have such a discussion and even address the problem whether or not it was the issue in this incident?!!!

Friend of mine took these as we landed back in Tennessee. I took my manager and assistant manager to Gulf Shores for a admin retreat and to take a look at some possible new business locations. The friend that took these as we got home is not a professional photographer, but I thought they came out super clean and clear. old Mooney is looking pretty good to be 40+ years old. I'm the old guy flying. -Tom

I just thought I would add my install that was completed over the weekend. 2 G5's and JPI EDM 900 a couple weeks ago. The left side only needs a new panel to get rid of all the covered holes ( I will do that when I do the GPS ETC )

Sorry, Alan. Mooney did make at least one aerobatic airplane: (But you're right, it wasn't a production model, and I get your point. I personally trust the Bonanza wing and attachment bolts.) The M20T Predator, a canopy-equipped version of the basic M20 design powered by a Lycoming AEIO-540 engine, was Mooney's entrant in the USAF Enhanced Flight Screener competition. The prototype, built in 1991, displayed in a tiger-stripe paint scheme. The sole prototype, registered N20XT, was flown in the Experimental – Market Survey category and was still owned by Mooney Aircraft in 2013, although its registration had expired November 30, 2013.[36][37][38] The competition for the Enhanced Flight Screener program was finally held in 1992, and the Slingsby T67 Firefly was chosen instead of the Mooney EFS.

Did anyone ever consider the fact that Mooney has never produced a single production aerobatic aircraft ever , And Beech has produced thousands ???? Wing bolts and all ????

Somebody is going to have to get Marauder under control.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Easter flight to the big city for Easter family festivities. 20 minute flight or hour 10 minutes driving. Mrs. Yetti pushed for flying due to the traffic on the return trip. She is a smart lady.

Boy, i was right on with it being the #3 gasket. I believe what you refer to as #6 is actually your #5. Unfortunately, you can’t assume you’ll need the standard stud, you may need to go oversize. Your tech will know when a new one is screwed in if it’s not tight. Loctite should be used too. But before it goes back together make sure the aluminum exhaust port is cleaned up from any erosion caused by the leak - otherwise it will continue to leak. i.e. it may likely need to resurfaced to be perfectly flat if the leak burned away aluminum as it often does. There are tools to do this in-situ if needed so that cylinder doesn’t need to be pulled. BTW, it’s not uncommon for these engines to shed exhaust bolts which is why it’s so important to inspect these with every oil change. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I got tired of all the squawking and talking and pooping and mess

I do not even want to shoot an approach to 200 1/2 with my new GTN and new G5 indicators. No matter how much money you put into these planes, and I have put more than most in my C it is still a lawn mower with wings.....don't fly where you don't belong......... I have owned my plane 3 years and have done one IMC approach in semi VFR conditions.

yes, 7 of the 11 inflight breakups since the 1994 AD have been V-tails. The other 4 were A36 models. Most of which involved encounters with TStorms or VFR into IMC. Probably more midair collisions involving V-tails in that time frame. I think the AD fixed it, and I dont worry about V-tail airplanes coming apart, or any Bonanza from D35 and later. Yes the Mooney airframe is stronger, but its 4x as strong as it needs to be, instead of simply 2.5x.

You can't trust a thing Paul Bertorelli writes about...I like the video about Piper cubs flying patterns as wide as the state of Florida...he keeps showing up in the video with more and more pilot epaulets glued to his shoulders!In the last scene ,he is covered with them.

If I were going to use my plane in IMC, I think I would be hard pressed to not have a NAV #2 because the first time I had NAV #1 go Tango Uniform in the soup, I would not be thrilled. When we consider the redundant items in our plane we have so we fly in IMC safely, I would prefer to skip the COM #2 before I skip the NAV #2. Even the Narco could get me to the ground safely. If I am carrying my family in IMC, it would not even be a question I would entertain.

Marauder, What is next for the panel that has nearly every base covered...? Add Synthetic vision option? Update the perfectly good Aspen system to a newer version? Paul, Great brief explanation on rate based and attitude based APs that are in our Mooneys, and when it is important to have an EA100. I think I heard Peter ordering an I-watch with an app to simulate the face of a nice Swiss time piece.... listening closely, he’ll hear the electronic tick, tick, tick... of course, paying for the app to cover the IP of the Swiss company... Best rgeards, -a-

What I do is to hold onto the throttle friction lock assembly (not the throttle black knob itself). I know I can hold my weight with my fingers tightly on the back of the friction lock on a climb out. I can then let go of the yoke with my left hand if the seat slips back and pull myself forward with my right hand (without killing the throttle). Other ideas to restrict the movement of the pilot's seat are definitely worth considering.

In my view, the discussion within this thread has been nothing but respectful to the poor soul who lost his life and very beneficial to all of us, plus I'm sure those who read this thread but not participate. This is no different to discussions that take place within other aircraft type forums following a sad loss, whatever the circumstance. @MyNameIsNobody and @kortopates correctly advise to let go of the yoke in this situation. However, this can be quite difficult as it is a natural tendency following the initial shock to grab onto the first object we can due to the shock itself and to stop the sudden backward force. That object is the yoke as we are already holding it which can result in a tighter grip. Where this discussion comes into merit is important advice and reminder to resist this temptation and release the grip. It is something I have not considered until reading this thread, even though it happened to me twice many years ago in a Piper Aerostar after takeoff where I retained my grip of the yoke as both times the seat did not slide completely back and luckily not enough to cause controllability issues. The suddenness was extremely frightening and something I'll never forget. This discussion is so beneficial it could have been a thread relating to our seat rails on its own. It is just sad it relates to the loss of one of our own.

Yes, the decision between a C or E that happen to be available should be based on the three most important plane purchase decision criteria; 1. condition 2. Condition 3. CONDITION Condition trumps the E or C criteria IMHO. That said for those who are absolutely heart set on an E that is fine, but if you are, take the time and trouble to find a good one and don’t settle for a lees than good plane just to have an E. My $0.02,

The 20 year extension gave it way for me, they should have made it 5 years and it would have been more convincing

Holy smokes! FYI, here's the link for the USB-to-serial adapter I use for EDM-700 series. $27 at Amazon. I use one of those Windows hybrid tablet/notebooks. They're cheap, light, have USB ports, and will run the JPI software fine. Also FYI--the CO monitor will only detect CO, not CO2. When you run lean, you make far less CO than if you were running rich. A such, you'd be less likely to detect a CO leak (either through the firewall or the exhaust heater) if you were leaned out in cruise than during climb.

Obviously there are opinions both directions on this. I did the swap myself using Avidyne's paperwork and am satisfied it's legal. I've been through an annual and a full panel upgrade since then. Maybe I'm ok as long as I stay out of NJ?

I've owned, and have hundreds of hours in, both a 64E & a 65C. Of course there are differences, but not as much as your might think. You should focus on the particulars of the aircraft on the market, irrespective of if it's a C or an E (or F). When I was looking at replacing my 64E, I was focused on another E but decided to buy my current C based primarily on panel & condition; price was not the primary factor but it was a consideration. The Es on the market at the time in my price range just didn't have the panel that our C offered.

After my last post I felt a little remiss about not mentioning the safety issue of continued flight. Thirty minutes is a very short flight that probably most would be tempted to continue. But recognize a loss of MAP as experienced here is very significant. A small leak, whether induction or exhaust, will not typically cause a significant loss of MAP. A large leak is more likely with significant loss of MAP, and consequently if its exhaust the threat of fire is very real and there is no more time critical emergency than fire. All this adds up to the need to divert to a nearby field before things get much worse. Maybe it turns out to be a minor induction leak, but you just never know. Luckily these kinds of turbo related issues are pretty rare, but we need to diligent about getting down if and when they do occur. Sure don’t mean to be critical of Bryan in this instance, this was really meant for others that have yet to experience such an emergency. Hopefully very few will. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Critical nature of WAAS and ILS... (precision approach nav equipment) These are the things that Byron is pointing out... if you only have one radio that can bring you to 200’ agl... you have to really start planning your IFR flights when the IMC gets low or variable... A VOR typically needs ceilings to be above 1000’ agl... Ever practice a precision Radar(?) approach? (There is a name for this ATC aided approach) Question for the OP... Instrument rated? Want to be? Intend to travel in IMC? Best regards, -a-

Your weight distribution is well within the envelope for a typical Ovation. It looks like about 49 gallons max. fuel and as you burn it off the Arm will remain about the same.

https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Do-not-approve-FAA-Extends-ADS-B-Mandate-to-2040-230532-1.html

My second Nav/Com was a Narco until I had issues with it and the GTN 650 at the same time. I was IFR at the time and trying to find my cheat sheet for lost Com wasn’t a lot of fun. The Narco will eventually have a problem and then you will be stuck trying to find someone to fix it. And when they can’t fix it, you will be looking at a replacement that will have a different size than that nice cutout your new panel has in it. I went with the GNC 255B. If you don’t want to go on the high end, there are other Nav Com options. Personally, I am not going to put my trust into an iPad solution for navigating if my solo Nav Com fails. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Number 2 gets used a lot when verifying where you are using number one.... With a powerful WAAS number one... number two is probably only going to get used when something fails with number one. Narcos have a tendency to breakdown in simple ways like old plastic gears for the tuning knobs.... So have a good #2. If you are paying for installation / wiring of an old #2... don’t waste the install costs on the old Narco... waste them on something newer... Best regards, -a-

Actually Mike Smith invented the tail cuff mod back in the 1980s. When the Beech AD came out, they mostly copied his lead. Since the AD forced the entire fleet with this tail cuff, either ZERO or almost ZERO V-tails have broken up in flight due to the tail. Now, take a TN A36 and penetrate a thunderstorm and lose control and reach 300 KIAS in a vertical dive, yes it will come apart. But at any semblance of staying near the flight envelope, you are safe.

I have to move the seat as well to get in and than slide forward. One additional thing I do once the seat is in the proper position is to grab the seat frame with one hand and under the instrument panel with the other and try to move my body forward and back several times to ensure that the locks are secure.

Someone could make a career of swinging compasses in a Mooney. The challenge is that if the error is due to the plane being magnetized (caused by avionic power wiring draped over the roll cage or running electrical equipment inside of the cockpit, ex, using a vacuum), you can be degaussing and swinging on a regular basis. I’m fortunate that I have multiple magnometers in my plane and the cross check with the magnetic compass becomes more of a symbolic exercise. Don’t get me wrong, I check the magnetic compass for accuracy, but keeping it accurate can be a bit of a challenge. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Ah I forgot to post the answer. The tube dripping huge amounts of fuel is the one attached to the sniffle valve. The theory that I think fits is that the missing stop allows fuel to flow when the mixture is pulled to cutoff during a normal start, flooding the engine. So the sniffle valve is hopefully fine and doing its job here.

The seat locking discussion has been productive for me irrespective of the actual cause of this tragedy - I'd never given it much thought, and clearly others have. Personal takeaways from the discussion: -I checked my seat rails for condition. I found some wear in the couple of holes behind the one where I lock my seat but not in mine. Prior owners must have been taller than me. Unsurprisingly the copilot seat rail holes showed wear across a wider range. My passenger briefing already includes discussion of seat locking and what to do (or more importantly not to do) if it becomes unlatched on takeoff roll, but I will give more emphasis going forward. -Maybe consider leaving the pilot seat locked in the same position all the time if you're the only one who flies the plane. I'm 5'8" I have little trouble getting in or out without moving the seat. The only time my seat gets moved is if I work under the panel or when it's in the shop. If one is physically comfortable entering and exiting without moving the pilot seat, I think doing this may lend a measure of safety and minimize wear to the locking mechanism. -Regardless, I will be more consistent in pushing down on the bar while checking that seat is locked in the before takeoff checklist. -Putting a locking mechanism as a backstop in a rail hole behind where my seat normally locks is an idea worth considering. -Holding the windshield center post after going to full power on the runway and/or during rotation is an interesting idea. Right now I hold the throttle after engaging the friction lock so that I'm primed to reject the takeoff if needed (for instance if the seat came unlatched). I could consider moving my hand to the center post slightly before rotation. As an aside, the Cessnas may have the same rails but their seats are higher than the Mooney seats. I wonder if that configuration creates more of an up force vector on the pin during acceleration and pitching up, contributing to a greater tendency to unlatch. Regardless, it would be better to inspect the rails and take care of the issue ourselves proactively than end up with an AD to replace the rails on a time schedule!

Nice virtually flying with you, Ziggy! Best regards, -a-

My recollection is the P003 suffix refers to the 3 thousands oversize. You'll want to start with the standard size and only go to the over size if the standard size fits loose.

Easter in Lincoln, was our first time flying there nice airport and as always turned a two plus hour drive into a half an hour flight. Had a great day with our family, trip home had us into a pretty strong headwind but still made good time Snoopy performed well but is time for an oil change and next month is my BFR. Hard to believe how fast time passes.

@neilpilot is 100% correct here... AND on where to find the best BBQ in Memphis.

I am guessing also but I don't think it did. As far as I can tell from my panel the bolt on the left side near the windshield is in the same spot and the next one to the right above the Master Warning light is also in the same spot so the glare shield is at the same height (to the side panel and windshield). There is about 2 inches removed from the panel between yoke shaft an the glare shield.

I hate April fools jokes. If I was an FAA official I would start doing ramp checks on all the writer’s aircraft. “So you make fun of FAA do you?...lets see all your logs...and is that IFD owner installation?”

I felt the same way. But after flying around with ADS the last few days I am glad I put it in. No more stratus. Flying around Daytona beach is some of the worst traffic I have seen. Much worse than Los Angeles or NYC.

Take a large Adel clamp (don't remember the size). Remove the cushion and bend it to fit the mounting holes and over the hoses. put the cushion back on and screw it down. Not the official Mooney part, but nobody will give you any grief about it.

IMHO, ive flown short mooneys, 231 mooney, ovation and acclaim. I own a 96 ovation and imho the only step up from the O would be the acclaim and from there a Twin Bo, an aerostar or turbo prop neither of which would be worth the extra maintenance expense for my flying needs. Hard to beat a Mooney

carusoam, Thankfully the actual movement from cradle to floor latch is as easy from the right as it is on the left - you’re right, airspeed is key! Once you get the timing down it’s a breeze. It’s just that darn thumb latch that’s making this so difficult! And no, the Mooney is blue, I’M the red bird (redhead). RLCarter, It’s definitely been an adjustment not having brakes but it’s been fun seeing all the less effective ways I can slow her down... namely getting a flat on one of the taxiways haha don’t really know who was losing nails but I did my part in helping him find at least one of them lol BDPeterson, A switch to lower the gear you say? Well why didn’t I think of that? But yes, the claw-type device idea would be a great help at this stage of my training lol -Jen

Looking at the data I see that when I took 4 minutes to climb from 8000 to 9000' the fuel level went from 19.1 up to 19.7. It took about 3 minutes after I leveled off for the fuel level to return to 19.1. This indicates to me that the float is sensitive to pitch and that there is dampening going on.

I am guessing you all know where this is headed...... My plan was to replace the KT76a with a Stratus ESGi since I didn't have any WAAS position source installed. Between the Superbowl Traffic/TFR's and the wonderful winter weather in Minnesota I scheduled the upgrade for the first week of February. The plan was to remove the KLN89b and install the new Stratus in it's place. I also figured it was a good time to remove the ADF. That would leave the center stack free for a future upgrades. What I didn't realize was how much work was required just to pull the those three radios and run new Coax for the WAAS antenna sorry for the upside down image, no matter what I did the the photo MooneySpace rotated it upside down (note to admin, please fix or add rotate controls) Rather than pay to put the panel back together now and redo it again in a year I bit the bullet and replaced almost everything. Avidyne AMX-240 Audio panel, IFD-550 and IFD-440 navigators, and the Stratus ESGi ADSB transponder. Good measure I installed a used Insight engine monitor too. In a major case of "while your in there" I also had the attitude gryo overhauled and the vacuum hoses replaced, carpets were ordered from SCS Interiors, and I ordered the DIY interior repair kit from Bruce Jaeger to spruce up the interior plastics. I may be broke now, but it is an amazing transformation. I can't wait to fly to SUN-N-FUN and actually file /G. I didn't realize how bad the old KX-170b's were getting until I was able to pickup up ATIS 60+ miles out.

Okay I bumped the thread a few days ago when I found it, but ended up not having a chance to write my follow up as I expected. Here goes: The plane came through annual with flying colors. The seat rails are slightly worn, but not bad enough to require immediate attention. Everything else was great. I would have to check my logs for an exact number, but I have flown her about 140 hours since purchase. When I started taking off the hatch covers for annual, I saw why the old salt Mooney guy declared her as the most corrosion free plane ha had seen in 30 years. There is a lot of advantage to keeping a plane always in a hangar and that hangar being in a dry climate like Kerrville, Texas. I still, however, need to find someone to do the interior and make her as presentable inside as she is on the outside. The VOR’s are both off by 30+ degrees. Problem is not the splitter. We found a dirty connection in the bulkhead below the tail, but no way to test it yet. Hopefully that will solve it or I might have to replace the antenna and/or coax. They will sign off and turn the plane loose Monday, so I am anxious to go check the VOR’s. This is frustrating because I use the 430W, but I think the VOR’s need to be healthy for the secondary means of navigation for legal IFR flight. Once she was on Jacks, I was able to see how the landing gear lever fits into the retainer lock. I was able to handle the gear fine without twisting the lever. I only needed to push it forward with the button pressed to release it. This still concerns me, because I have pushed it forward in flight with no good results. It has taken a twist of the handle to get it loose. We will see. After a year with the plane I have gained confidence in her and with her. She flies wonderfully, seems to be rigged well and have gotten used to the smoky ASI. A member here has offered the ASI that he will be removing when he puts in a glass panel, so I will have it painted for my speeds and get that in before my IFR certification due in July. We have not traveled as much as we have wanted, although we have been to Galveston and a few shorter trips. We have had many obligations that have kept us from traveling as much as we would like, so hopefully that will be different this year. We want to give her plenty of medium and long distance exercise. My stepson in law bought a Baron in North Carolina, so I expect to take him there to ferry it home. That will be something like 700NM so I am looking forward to that. I hope to make a few pleasure trips shortly thereafter. SO...... a year later and I am still smitten with my Mooney.