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I need your all's advice on something. But first, a little backstory. Rick, the airport mechanic and I went to a hangar and used a pair of bolt cutters to get into this hangar, where this Mooney 201 sat, and hasn't seen the light of day in a long time. The owner, a 98 year old gentleman, didn't want to sell it after being unable to fly years ago and so it sat in this hangar since. The family (son and daughter) want to get rid of it finally. Keys are lost, but they are looking. From what I can see the interior is in great shape too.So the next day, Rick and I pulled it out and go gave it a bath. The thing looks like it just came off the showroom floor! Under all that dirt was an incredibly clean 201. Amazingly, Rick was the original mechanic on the plane, and he still had the record for when he last worked on it...28 years ago in 1989! So as far as he knows, it hasn't flown or seen the outside of that hangar in nearly as long. Now to my question. Obviously it would need an engine, and the tanks sealed, but should I make an offer on this? Rick would be able to get me a great deal on it for me, and help me with all the maintenance, and have a place for me to keep as long as I wanted. With me being 24, funds aren't abundant, but I think over some time, I could make it owning something like this work especially as my t shirt sales have really taken off recently (pun intended), getting a raise at my job, and with having the luxury of having A&P friends who want to see me succeed in me owning my dream airplane (hense the username) and saving up a good amount of money on my growing t-shirt empire that would otherwise go to my instrument rating and on. Would it be a good idea to grab it, and work on getting it flying over the next couple of years? How much do you think its worth? How much would need to be put in to get it flying do you imagine? If anything, enjoy the pics! Edit* Checked the oil. Full at 8 quarts and looked like it was put in yesterday. Jesse

I say do it. If we all relied strictly on our common sense, none of us would have an airplane in the first place. Put in the time and do your research with your A&P. If it looks good, follow your dream, take the plunge. I'll order more T-shirts!

If the keys are missing - what about the logbooks? Think long and hard about aircraft ownership unless you have disposable income and lots of it. So calculate your expected costs and then double them! Define your mission and requirements. If you are sinking money into a non-flying plane then you are spending money and not actually doing any flying - meanwhile spending money to insure it and just do preventative maintenance - not restorative work! Once it starts flying - the money to restore will decrease as its more fun to fly than work on a plane! Second thought - you will have a major financial liability on your hands. A non flying plane is very very very hard to sell unless its dirt cheap. My bank won't even consider a loan unless the aircraft passes a PPI and has a current annual and registered. Finding a lender may be hard so you might have to buy this airplane with cash. You will also need CASH to pay the taxes on the purchase...that is unavoidable and you can't finance that part like you can on a car. Expect a 20% down payment plus an additional 7-10% for taxes. Include 1-2K for PPI. Additionally 3-5K minimum just to address all the rubber items on the aircraft that will have dry rotted and need replaced. All this and you may get to first flight - IF the motor checks out. I would not expect to fly it more than 100 hrs after that before it starts making metal. Bottom line - an aircraft is a luxury item. I waited 23 years and even though I can "afford" a Bravo or 252 - I settled with an M20C because it fit my financial risk tolerance. I don't know your financial situation but unless you have fully funded plan in place to retire at 55-60 - I would skip buying at this time. There will be other Mooneys to be had. I'll admit that I'm being the negative nancy...but I've been in the business of trying to keep young people from making stupid mistakes for a long time...

Since it is a project of sorts, don't kill it by keeping in on a ramp for "free". It wont be free. Please put it in a hangar where you can do the work on it, keep tools, beer etc. Sunny CA kills planes just like Sunny Fl. kills planes outside on the ramp. You saw how nice it cleaned up with a bath, don't expect that with a plane that has been sitting outside for a year.

Buy a tablet, some 100LL, fly alot

We switched from Shell w100 in the summer and w80 in the winter to Phillips XC20w/50. No more trying to decide which one to put in at the next oil change. And it's cheaper. If you are just looking to save money, try going to this website: Petroleum Service Company I buy 2 cases at a time to minimize my shipping costs. Even being shipped from Pennsylvania all the way to Washington (the real one, not DC) it only costs me about $135. That's $5.63/quart. We use Camguard with it to help it stick to the innards for corrosion protection.

at the risk of thread drift, I'll take Mary Ann and syrup.

Molasses can be substituted for aircraft oil in extreme emergencies. Saw this on a Gilligans Island episode.

You wouldn't have this trouble if you remapped the engine to run ROP instead of LOP.

Jesse, I'll dive into my experience to let you determine what would be best: I found my current plane sitting in a hangar only an hour's drive away from me. Owner lost his medical but had still been flying it around the patch. It was out of annual by 2 years. The engine is at TBO, tanks were leaking. I bought it for $16k, and about 12 months later (that's not a typo), I finally flew it for the first time. My first annual was $11,000 and some change. I'm $26k into it and it's got a timed out engine and crap panel, but still is a hoot to fly. I've been lucky with the Lycoming's having the cam up top, mine hasn't been showing any signs of wear. Oil filters have been spotless. With that said, you have highlighted the BIG possibilities. The engine can be considered a run-out. You can do what my friend Cody did and buy an engine off Barnstormers and swap it. You might be able to find a mid-time IO-360 for anywhere between $10k-20k and do a swap, instantly raises the value. The tanks, that's another big part. If you do bladders, it's a buy once, cry once deal. Half of the price of my 11k annual was labor in stripping and resealing the tanks alone, so I spent 5k on those alone. I will say, when I saw the first picture, I was like "oh wow cool" and when I scrolled down and saw how bright she shone, my heart skipped a beat. That is ONE SEXY 201! Right now inside me is screaming "get it! get it! get it!" BUT you also want to make sure you are ready for this leap. Airplanes, especially at our age (I bought mine at 24, I'm 26 now) is A MASSIVE FINANCIAL BURDEN. I'm spending close to 90% of my disposable income alone to be able to say I own a plane. My girlfriend wants to go house shopping, but we can't because of the airplane. My truck is 20 years old and I would like something newer and more economical, but I can't because of the airplane. There are times that I have been depressed due to financial strain and my short and long term goals with owning versus not owning it. If I had to do it all over again, honestly, hand on heart, I would go back in time to tell my past self to walk away. I'm not sure how your income situation is, but my plane is literally eating me out of house and home. I want to finish my IFR and commercial tickets and I'll eventually sell it, at a massive loss. And this is with a carburated, Johnson-bar C model. With the J, you've got the angle valve cylinders which are almost twice the price of their parallel valve brethren, you've got fuel servos, electric gear, etc. You ask how much we think its worth and how much you would need? Well as above, someone said 50k for a runout and 100k for a perfect J model. But, that is a 1981 model and it was last flown in 89? Its a time capsule. I can't imagine it having much time, and being hangared is a good sign. I haven no idea what it would be worth but I would easily say you need $20,000 to get it back in proper shape, and thats assuming the engine does not need a swap. But please keep in mind this is just my take! This is just something I wish I would have known when I saw my plane, because I fell in love. (A couple of the MS'ers on here also persuaded me not to undertake this project). It's not a smart move to fall in love with your first. and that plane deserves a home and if you have the financial backing and an A&P who is willing to help, it CAN be done. It just takes a lot of money

Someone posted this once before but I like it.

While I am usually the voice of caution, this eerily matches a good friends experience with his plane. He bought a Commander 114 that had been sitting outside in the Alabama sun for more than a decade. Putting a new battery in it, filling it with fuel, and cleaning the points on one mag got it running after 10 minutes. Since then he has put several hundred hours on the engine, had a couple of expensive annuals (2 cylinders followed by an engine monitor install), and is now in the midst of redoing the interior in preparation to paint it. So these finds really do exist. You might have a dog or it might be a deal, but you need to do some more investigation to make a decision. "My only regrets in life are temptations successfully avoided."

it seems that doing nothing is the best investment I can make in my panel these days. Each few months go by and the market gets better and better for avionics... complicated indeed, but I like it!!

Yes, thanks! Several people here have been helping me immensely. We might be back up and running soon

Took off work early met my wife at the hangar for a hop over the hill to take care of an appointment in town. Just a short flight 15 minutes vs one and a half hours drive each way. I sometimes think we get the most utility out of our Mooney as anyone around.

Googling the registration looks like the tail number has been taken by another airplane? Second, I know the concern of the group will be that the family gets a fair price and isn't taken advantage of in their possible ignorance. That said if it has sat that long that does indeed devalue it quite a bit as it may need a lot of work. Personally I think it should be flying again, and maybe the family feels the same way and wants you to be the one to make it happen... be honest with them and maybe approach it this way.... I'm willing to buy the airplane for x, as there is probably a lot of work to make it flyable again. I can save you all the time of marketing it or a possible brokers fee and you'll make a young man very happy who will treasure and appreciate it and make it fly again. I can't promise that you might not make more from someone else, but I think mine is a fair offer. And make a fair offer... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I just wanted to tell everyone how great of a service that I got at this place. I need my wing rigging checked and these guys stayed late on a Friday to hook me up, and wouldn't go until it was finished and I test flew the plane several times. It is a family run business and also an authorized service center. This guy knows mooneys very well. I am going back there for my annual for sure. He is base near Charlotte at Foothills Regional.. I know people usually get the bad posts, but I wanted to post a good one. Mark Weidner

So what is a fair price for this bird? We know the avionics are dated, there's plenty of risk involved, the consensus seems to be $35-40K to make it airworthy but it could be more depending on the engine. This is shooting from the hip but I'm thinking based on what we know a fair offer would be about $40K. If a J is what you ultimately want this may be your chance. I fly a J and they run cheap. $3,500 for annuals, basic maintenance such as oil changes I do myself, only burns 10-11 gph, insurance is $1,500 per year. Hanger rent is cheap but I'm not in CA. Things do and will pop up but (knock on wood) I've had no major setbacks. There are a lot of airplanes out there that are much more expensive to own and operate than a 201.

I saw them yesterday, didn't think they had been there before. Proud daddy, nervous daughter finished with school and ready for the Real World!

It sounds like you are going to buy the plane, try to write it off, let it sit outside for over a year before working on it, and progress from there very slowly. The above sound like a very BAD idea. If you truly want his plane buy it with the intention of working on it asap and borrow the money to make minimum repairs to get it airworthy. If you need years to build up money to fix the expected please pass on this plane.

bladders just had to throw a rock at the hornet's nest. lol

Just for kicks lets start a list. I think it is a really clean plane and could fly tomorrow with a new battery and an oil change after a run up. Not that I recommend that! As far as fair price the risk is with the buyer so it should be a deal. I think the past aviator at 96 would be delighted to see the new future aviator at 24 take this plane instead of a broker or parts guy. I don't know any of these prices but a guess would be. IRAN the engine $15K Prop OH $2K gyro rebuild $2K battery $500 replace all rubber $4000 Additional unexpected expense $10K

Barn finds like that can be once in a lifetime. Make an offer you can live with....they may or may not take it. I actually found that it was easier to buy a plane when I didn't know better. Later in life other priorities get in the way and give you more excuses not to buy. I haven't upgraded because of all of this conflicting excuses...mortgage, wife, kids, now college, retirement, etc. Much easier to recover at your age. Make an offer where you can still afford to fix it and fly it. If they don't take it, you can always say you tried. No offer and you may forever regret it. This assumes you do all the usual homework and assume it will need the work based on all of the good advice above. Make sure the title is clean and transferrable. Estates can get greedy. Good luck, beautiful plane!

If you made a 201/231 shirt; I'd buy one... But as I've said this before, then I need a commission because at this point, I'm a consultant...

Bubblehead 10-22-2016 12:21 PM Dual Mag engines and prop governor oil leak safety issue I have been researching oil leaks because I have been fighting one on my engine for a couple of months. I came across several accident reports for airplanes with "D" suffix engines that experienced loss of power, sometimes engine overspeed, and often complete destruction of the engine due to loss of oil between the prop governor and the governor mounting pad. This pertains to rear mounted governors. My engine is a O-360-A1F6D converted to fuel injection so this concerned me. The problem arises because engines with dual magnetos need a spacer plate with gaskets on each side on the prop governor or the governor shaft will bottom out and hold the governor out just enough to allow for an oil leak. Sometimes minor, sometimes catastrophic. If you have a dual mag engine make sure you have this plate and the 2 correct gaskets installed. Confusion happens over the right installation parts because Hartzell's instructions don't show it, they only say these are general instructions and check your airframe and powerplant manuals. Cessna's orginal manuals for the Cardinal RG, where my engine came from, don't show the spacer plate but Cessna put out an update that has apparently not been noticed by a lot of A&P/AIs. The Lycoming parts manual for my engine does show the plate but does not show the governor in the same illustration so it does not tell you to add the second gasket. That is why 1438A (below) is so important. In 1438A it shows the plate and two-gasket arrangement but with the close off plate not the governor. The 2nd gasket in that diagram has to be replaced with a MS9144-01 gasket. The Hartzell number for that gasket is B-1104, also available from Tempest. The correct lineup in my case is a Lycoming 72053 gasket against the mounting, then a LW-12347 plate, then a MS9144-01 or B-1104 gasket against the governor. Here is a diagram from the Mooney document listed below that shows it best.

OMG, now you're going to start the molasses vs syrup debate. It just never ends.

Shoulda bought a chevy...

Look at your W2 and Bank statement. Take 20k each year out of your W2 for expenses, and 80k out of your Bank statement(for the purchase and make ready cap ex) - are you good - can you eat, entertain that yet to find beautiful girlfriend who will soon want a house and kids that need to eat and go to college. Don't forget Jimmy, your friend who has a great idea and wants a friend to partner with him in business - just needs 200k - can you still do that. Dude, there's lots of life in front of you. Plan well. Rent now, build for the future. Buy the plane when you have the important things in life secured. Or - just say screw it and buy the thing remembering that the above yet to happen things will be affected.

Jesse, What a cool find! This experience alone is a once in a lifetime event. I was involved at a young age with a barn find, a 1967 big block Corvette convertible. A mentor of mine bought it and got it running and I was a part of that, I still cherish the memory of riding down the road listening to the side pipe exhaust and all the heads turining to look at this time capsule. As cool as it was to be a part of it, I didn't have the means or know how to bring that car to completion. Airplane ownership can be very costly. More so than classic cars or even houses. It can also be very rewarding, If my 24 year old son wanted to buy this Mooney, I would discourage him from doing so. Having owned a couple of planes, I know the hidden costs that abound. What I would do however is encourage him to buy a home, fix it up and rent it out. Use the cash flow from the rental, even if it is just a couple of hundred dollars a month, toward the airplane dream. Let someone else pay for your airplane and pay off your house. You are young, build your empire and then buy the airplane that you want. In the end it will be a much more satisfying experience. Thanks for sharing this experience. I look forward to finding out what becomes of this beauty. Best, Steve

Not necessiarly needs tanks resealed if they are not leaking now. Fill it up and let it sit. Assume about $10K to get it back in the air. Having your A&P show you stuff is priceless. Check for corrosion FIRSt using M20 Docs Checklist

this is an 08 Expedition. Looks like trend and Ford should issue a SB.... Battery is on the 2 year wally world maint plan. Bad news I replaced about 3 walley world batteries in the same month. On this one the Power steering cooler and A/C cooler are in the same plastic unit that sit behind the radiator. The powersteering Cooler started leaking. It is a $200 unit and you have to redo the A/C Fluid. A $30 Aux Power steering cooler off Amazon and a NAPA hose fixed that. What no "you need an engine monitor" comments?

A new personal altitude record for me today. FL250. I was pushing it pretty hard and it was drinking a lot of fuel. I did notice one cylinder getting a little warm and a touch of cowl flaps cooled it right down. The infinitely variable cowl flaps on the 252 are nice to have. You can really cover some country at these speeds. This was KSQL to KVGT

Of course we're very much into big data analysis of our vast flight data. But we have to leave oil type, its consumption and metal analysis to folks that analyze oil samples like Blackstone since we have way of tracking that. But FWIW, at Savvy, Mike has always been recommending straight weight oils when possible and the Phillips x-ctry for those that need a multi-weight - both with Camguard.

The MIL specs the oils have to meet guarantees that mixing viscosities or brands is safe. Or it wouldn't be legal to use in aircraft at all. -Robert

Fully run-out, no paint, UV beaten, M20Js with no radios are bought for around 50amu... Fully cleaned up, operational M20Js cost over 100AMU... While you are only living once, read up on Alex's endless thread of what it is like to start an endless project. If you are like Alex, get the living on! Realistically, a PPI is still your best friend, to assess the health of every bit of the project... I would expect every piece of rubber on it needs to be replaced. An engine OH is highly probable. Tank sealant has been done by Alex, study his pictures. The cost of keeping a plane includes monthly rent. protecting your investment requires insurance. Keep both eyes open. It will take a ton of t-shirt sales to cover some of these costs. Proceed with extreme caution... Even with a free plane, the other 50 amu can be a challenge to come by. Best regards, -a-

I think it's a great opportunity. Even if it takes you some time (few years) to get it where you want it you do have time. I seem to recall another young guy @Raptor05121 who bought a plane, put in the sweat equity, and has done a lot of flying and made a lot of memories. He's going through some headaches with his exhaust currently, but I don't think he regrets buying his bird. Maybe you can be a student of his and engage in "Raptor Methodology."

Lets see, I have had drips from leaking mag seals, push rod seals, oil returns on the bottom of engine and even a couple from loose or missing case bolts. The best way to determine the source is to remove cowls, clean engine, add dye, run and look for leaks. It is pretty difficult to find a leak by just looking because the oil gets blown all over the place.

Chris, that is what I have found after 15 years of owning an F and about 4 with the Bravo. The only real difference is the hull value of insurance, and the fuel burn plus a bit more maintenance for the toys like O cylinder, King stuff, (alt. preselect, swiss watch, KRAP 150 AP's )and exhaust systems. Then you get to the fuel burn. Plan for 20 GPH in a Bravo and 10 GPH in a J, F, or E. Your going to spend 2 x the fuel to go 200 kts vs 155 kts, and in the big scheme of things, it isn't much more, as your hours are less for the same distance.

Form me: Hangar: 6,600 Insurance: 2,600 Taxes: 1,500 Annual: 6,000 average Fuel at 120 hours/year and 4.50/gallon and 18 gal/hr: 9,720 Oil Changes: 5 at 200: 1,000 That's 26,820. Then add 10,000 for unexpected maintenance expenses: $36,820. This is realistic including the 10K miscellaneous. Miscellaneous might include Batteries at 500 a pop, spark plugs, exhaust maintenance, turbo and waste gate overhaul, possibly some cylinder work as time goes on, O2 cylinder checks, prop o ring overhaul, reserve for engine overhaul (expect at least 70,000 for that) and on and on.

Because it's all anecdotal. Some people's Air Trac lasted since WWII, some people's Flight Custom III flat spotted on first landing. And even if there is some element of truth, 4 sets of cheap tire are almost certainly going to last longer than 1 set of expensive tires.

One step ahead of you!

Open up this cost comparison spreadsheet and crunch the numbers; reference the "tabs" at the bottom of the spreadsheet. It might be very shocking to see the real-world numbers. I make just above the six-figure mark, have no kids, and I can barely afford my M20D. My geographic cost of living is low and my hangar rental is next-to-nothing (very opposite of California...). Keep in mind that it is my goal to retire at 50 with zero debt but with many toys... I still think you should pick this up, if it passes a pre-buy, and flip it. Buy a C model and benefit from the cheaper costs and one day buy this 201 back after you start raking in the huge California salary. Or step 2, leave California and move to Texas. alan_hoffler_cost_comparison.xls

Going to go with the silicone that Andy linked above. Already have it set for will-call tomorrow at Aircraft Spruce. I'll have my wife run out and pick it up. (The blessings of having an awesome wife and AS about 10 miles away.)

Welcome to MS looking at your name makes me think that performance more than budget will direct you in your choice of Mooney model. Those of us on the bottom of the top that had to choose based on economics will I think all state they are very happy with the M20 B C D E G and F. My wife and I have done a bit of mountain ranges in our C and dont give it a second thought. It's all about GW and DA and good flight planning. good luck with your search but just wanted to let you know the early Mooney's are also very capable flyers.

Ferris Bueller's aviation themed sequel?

That's what happens when you hand prop a plane in the reverse direction...

:-) This is not the beginning of the end, but the end of the beginning. You are still at the tail end of middle aged. ..and I started programming as a young teenager on the Sinclair ZX81, and then later mowed lawns and bought an Apple II - the integer basic one before they came out with the Apple II plus with floating point. In my business as a college prof I am automatically old as dirt because most of the people I work with are between the ages of 18 and 27 (grad students too).