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When we hear about an accident with loss of life, our first thoughts (rightfully) are condolences for the family and friends of the deceased. At that point, since we don't KNOW all the facts, we must wait for the NTSB report, a couple of years down the line, to know the (at least official) cause of the accident. But if we want to use the accident as a learning experience, we have to make some guesses and assumptions. At this point, I hope we are not saying "the pilot screwed up by doing x", but rather, "perhaps factor x was involved, and if so, how do we improve our piloting abilities in this regard". I think these discussions are valid, but we should be careful to be cognizant of the fact that we are dealing with how to improve, rather than placing blame.

I just saw an Avweb news flash. They are reporting hundreds of Mooney owners are flocking to airports to try a new technique known as "Bonalizing". [emoji6] Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Ok, trying again here. In this effort, I've watched the video several times and am looking forward to trying out this method in my Mooney tomorrow morning. It looks genius.

This is mainly for those of you in the North East or anyone looking for an extra challenge. us-airways-flight-1549-sully-skiles-hudson-river-miracle-approach.pdf Yes this is a joke

We don't yet know what happened to this flight that resulted in tragedy. Our hearts are saddened by the news. Regardless of the reason, such an event is a sobering reminder that disaster is always close at hand either through mechanical failure, weather or personal error. Endeavors involving complex machines traveling at high speed can NEVER be made 100% safe, there will always be risk. You can't legislate good judgement or the ability to anticipate problems. It's up to each of us as pilots to develop personal policies, minimums and thought processes to insure the safety of ourselves, family and friends who place their lives in our care. Sadly there are some that never fully recognize or accept the latent dangers of any kind of travel. People die in airplanes, boats, cars, on bicycles, and stepping off a curb. However, I believe that flying in a well maintained aircraft, piloted by a careful, thoughtful, person, aware of his limitations and those of his machine, to be among the safest methods of travel. May God bless our friends on this flight and the family and friends they leave behind.

So then let's just agree to learn something. We learned something from the high altitude incident, the Canadian incident. We can certainly learn something here. Most pilots would agree that if we augered in, that something would be learned that could prevent a similar incident.

Hi to all from Sydney Australia! I've just achieved my long time dream of becoming a Mooney owner, after purchasing FRO, a 1964 Charlie model. Looking forward to many hours of great flying in it

Ohio to Washington and back...13 hrs out and 11 hrs back (total hobbs time)...the 252 made it easy...my J would've made the trip, but, operationally speaking, it would have been a real headache. Climbing straight to the filed 17,000 feet at 1000 FPM was simply wonderful! Onboard O2? Heaven sent and so easy to both use and refill. Speedbrakes? A true blessing descending into places like Jackson Hole, WY and Bozeman, MT. Over wing fuel quantity indicators are a God send for allowing me to accurately pump exactly how many gallons I want onboard...no guessing and no trips into the cockpit to look at the fuel gauges! The 252's engine management makes inflight power setting changes for climb or cruise a non-event...very simple, quick and accurate! Hoped to go high on the trip back east, but the tailwinds never really materialized, so we crossed the Rockies at our planned 16,000' westbound and 17,000' eastbound, except for one leg where we jumped up to FL210 simply to find smoother air (oh, and we had sea level takeoff power and 1000 FPM going there!). Some KTAS numbers noted were: 166 KTAS at 8000', 174 KTAS at 11,000', 177 KTAS at 12,000', 179 KTAS at 14,000', 183 KTAS at 16,000', 187 KTAS at 17,000', 190 KTAS at FL190 and 192 KTAS at FL210...all of these parameters were achieved at 28"MP, 2500 RPM, 50 ROP TIT and burning 13 to 13.3 GPH. Pretty amazing IMHO. So to cap it off, the places we visited -- my wife's fathers grave in Keokuk IA, Mt Rushmore, grizzly bears in Bozeman MT, visiting my brother near Spokane WA, visiting my wife's sister near Seattle (they hadn't seen each other in over 20 yrs!), gondola ride at Jackson Hole WY, visiting my wife's brother in Des Moines IA -- were what made this trip possible only by GA travel. An airline would have been quicker, for about the same cost, seen fewer things along the way and we'd have had a fraction of the memories made...would we do it again? My wife says YES! And I didn't pay her to say that!!! By the way, to address the J-to-K topic, the last trip in our J where we were under gross by a little and tried to climb from 10K to 12K for an approaching cloud deck (bumpy ride) and the ensuing struggle as I tried to climb at "full power" of 20-ish inches of MP (and decreasing) and was getting 200-300 fpm and my resultant frustration as I tried to comfort my better half while milking our beleaguered craft thru the bumpy clouds and upward towards smoother air. It was then that I looked at my wife and said, "You know, if we had a turbo Mooney, we'd actually have some power with which to climb." She responded thru clenched teeth, "So why don't we have a turbo Mooney?" So, operationally speaking again, what's different now in the 252 versus how we operated the J? We typically cruised the J at 8,000' westbound & 9,000' eastbound at 157 KTAS burning 9.5-10 GPH...with a portable O2 tank...and a KTAS situation that started decreasing with any further climb. Now, our typical 252 plan, is to cruise at 11,000' eastbound & 12,000' westbound at 175 KTAS burning 13 GPH, onboard O2 (no portable tank hanging in the face of a rear passenger) and the comfort of knowing that a climb into the mid-20s at 1,000 FPM is readily available...oh and the airplane just keeps going faster and faster the higher we go. We loved our J, but this 252 is just magical.

This type of incident certainly brings out strong opinion accompanied with emotion since collectively we all share a close bond to all pilots and flyers. Lots of different thinking here and it's always essential that we never become complacent. Another post that linked an actual study about membership to type clubs such as MAPA (even though not part of the study) indicated there is a reduction in accident rates when compared to non member types. I know that just being a part of Mooney Space has given me lots of knowledge to add to my flying. I wonder about statistics on MS I have been here since 2013 I think and there are over 2000 members how many accidents both non and fatal have there been with MS pilots. Seems like way below average accident rates. For instance the discussion on AOA and despite 201'rs approach to the subject it has me thinking more about how I fly my wing even though I was always aware of the concept and that airspeed is only part of the equation. As sad as this thread is I want to thank all of you who continue to offer information that helps us all be better qualified to fly these airplanes. God speed to those that are lost doing what brings them happiness.

I would like to know who the "We" are that you keep talking about. You speak of "we collectively in GA" scrutinizing who can rent a plane. That would imply self regulation, but then you seem to imply that "we in GA" are perhaps not up to the task of self regulating. Which is it that you are recommending, more government oversight or more common sense on the part of the owner renting the aircraft, the pilot flying it, or the passengers getting on the plane? I think that the term "crisis" is thrown around a little too much. Yes, there are planes that go down and lives are lost. Frequently it appears that the accident and loss of life could have been prevented, often easily prevented by better preparation, better training, or just more common sense. Does that then become the job of the government to add more regulations? It is impossible to regulate common sense. This is beginning to sound like it is falling into the "if there's anything at all we can do to save one more life we need to do it" line thought. More regulations will not solve the problem of GA crashes and loss of life. Better training and education will, but that should not be mandated by the government. The more regulations that are added, the more you will see GA dwindle until it disappears. All that will be left are those that are learning and logging tie until they can move onto flying professionally instead of the folks going out for a weekend trip or a morning breakfast run. I'm just a low time student taking my checkride in a little over two weeks. However, I watch just about every Youtube video that AOPA puts out with their Air Safety Institute as well as reading up on accident reports, what happened, and how they could have been prevented. Why? Because I don't want to be another statistic that someone is reading about. There is a risk in flying GA and a risk in getting in a GA plane as a passenger. It is my responsibility to make sure that if I am the pilot I am competent, proficient, and prepared. If I am the passenger it is my responsibility to make sure that the pilot is competent, proficient, and prepared. I don't need more rules and regulations so that I can "pass the buck" on my personal responsibility. I think the real questions that each of us should be asking ourselves are: When will each of us as individuals look closely at who can rent our plane if we are in the business of renting planes? (The school I am at actually rents a Mooney and a Piper Apache. They are very careful of who rents and require check-out rides. Even if you are renting one of their Cherokees with tons of time and want to fly to Catalina or Big Bear they require a check-out ride there before you can go on your own. Not because regulations require it, but because they personally require it.) How do I look at currency, total time, and time in make and model if I am renting a plane or those items of the pilot if I am getting in a plane that is being rented? (Let's not overlook going for a ride with someone in their own plane who may be current, but not currently proficient.) Finally, what am I doing to make sure that I am properly trained and prepared to fly, and what am I doing to constantly improve myself? There are plenty of regulations, what we need more of is personal responsibility.

Walk away.

Sounds like a good use for PBR to me! I sure as heck wouldn't DRINK it.[emoji51] Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Bonal, 1) I tried this yesterday...probably the best advice on entering and exiting the pilots seat. It was almost too easy. Thank you! 2) your video played great, my advice is dump the icrap and follow your wife's android lead.

Nope, cancelled again. Trying again on Friday. In the mean time I took advantage of my business trip to chicago to meet my CFI in VA and we did a Ferry flight back from Richmond VA back to the Bay Area. 17.2 hobbs in a sr22. Plus i got in about 4 hours to put towards my IFR and a few interment approaches. Plus we ran into that line of thunderstorms from Texas to Canada on saturday/sunday. My first real IMC experience where we had to divert 60nm south from ABI to SJR and spend the night there. In the morning we did a IFR departure in a tiny window of opportunity and managed to get out of the line of thunderstorms. If we had stayed there was another massive storm rolling though and we would have been stuck there until tuesday! But running into that line was crazy. It was all smooth air and then WACK, like we ran into a semi truck. You could see the ground track of a individual cell coming right at us, lightning started flashing all around and we high tailed it out of there. I learned a TON. I mean I thought the planes traffic scope was broken because we flew maybe 8 hours and didnt see a single person!. We flew over the desserts of AZ and Cali and I learned all about the rising/falling air which was crazy. Saw first hand clouds ascending as the day went on and how easy it could be to get stuck on top. Over all I learned an obscene amount in 2 days. I mean, this was real flying.

Yikes sorry - significant metal in the filter after 2 hrs is the huge roll of the dice for buyer that may take many hours more flight to sort out - inop autopilot is a big deal if it wasnt disclosed - both should give significant price leverage - but agree I'd walk anyway. Btw maybe consider F models also? You might find a very well cared for one with nice avionics at your price point rather than take chances with the low end of the J market.

...I offer the following pictures as proof of the awsome performance of the older turbo Mooneys. 205KTS @ 13K on 10 GPH. I made it from Memphis, TN to Jacksonville, FL in just over 3 hours and it cost me about 100 bucks in fuel. Tons more leg room then in coach and the snacks were free Delta doesn't even come close to touching that!

I'll be there Sunday morning in 7122v

This should be up to the owners and insurance carriers to set precedent,policies and procedures. The passengers should make sure there pilot is up to snuff, a technical term. I know even being a pilot I won't fly with someone who I don't feel it is competent on that given day. I stopped flying with a high time pilot because he stopped using his checklist. Peter how do you propose to regulate the industry, we can't even regulate ourselves. If we do ok on our two year ride review we're ok, maybe for that day anyway. If you take enough online courses you'll be able to skip the review, without even flying for your last two years i.e. being a wings member with enough wings for the period. I'd rather make,yes I said it, someone with below x time in the last year have to take recurrent training, if we're not going to stay current on our then it should be forced upon us. That's regulation.

I think I fly the big brother of your J, N252AD.

Gixxer, yours was undoubtedly one of the nicest C models in the fleet and certain its new owner must be delighted with it. I'm sure you feel no regret when you play in the world of plus 200 speeds. As for XRmc I know how much you want a J but if your not going to carry back seaters often I think a top end E or perhaps a normalized F could be perfect and the F would give you same space and perhaps even more capability.

Back in the 80's I definitely spent at least five hours in the Arrow rental.

I got some feedback confirming that the price of the motor is ridiculous !!! Now the Vernier option would do the job very well. All I want to do is being able to open the cowl flaps just enough to cool the engine on very hot days, without creating too much drag or shock cooling my precious cylinders ;-) !!!

I wouldn't be too quick to blow out the budget. In my humble opinion, shopping for airplanes is a unique situation in that you really don't want a "bargain". You really want to "over pay". Certified parts are very expensive as are A&P/AI/Avionics tech's. So for airplanes in the <$100K range, maintenance and upgrades are a disproportionately high cost. In other words, it will be cheaper to "over-pay" for an airplane that is "turn-key" ready to go, then get a bargain and have to put maintenance/upgrades into it. That same $70K will buy you an amazing E, or better yet go spend $50K on an unbelievable C and put the other $20K into 100LL. Think about what percentage of the time you'll need the leg room in the back seat. Full size people fit in the back seat of a C, they just won't be comfortable for more than 2 or 3 hours. I recently sold a C for $50K and often times when I pull my M20K 252 up to the pump, I wish I'd kept it. Just my $0.02

This is the same message I had from Brittain 3 years ago. They did manage to get one for me after about 6 months if I recall correctly. Maybe they got it from KRN? I guess there is not enough volume to justify the expense for them. Yves

Thank you, it feels great to be a part of what seems to be a real fraternity, and yes, like all mooneys, she's a joy to behold! She'll look even better with a lick of paint, but that's for later when I recover financially from the purchase!

So is beer 100% out then? I've got some old PBR that needs a good use...

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1440429/1994-mooney-m20j-mse i might have just decided to blow my budget completely....:) after the two planes listed in the $70's I'm seeing good advice in what you are saying.

I foresee a long and happy relationship with mine also!

As expected, after a very short time I am greatly enamoured with my M20C, it's everything that I expected, and some.

Thank you, I just looked at the ad. I'm not a huge turbo guy, and never flown one. But it looks like a nice plane.

You did ask 20160928_103109.mp4

You did ask

Come on Jim. You are talking about an "Act of God". An accident is an unplanned/unexpected event that may or may not involve personal injury or property damage. I understand what you are saying...People who live in the 100 or 500 year flood plane have a 1 in 100 or 1 in 500 chance of a catastrophic flood. You can mitigate the damage by building flood walls or CHOOSING to not reside in the flood plain or "in tornado alley"...by NOT parking under the tree. It is STILL an accident, I.E. the event is not "planned for". If I am trimming an apple this moring and the blade on the tool breaks and the momentum/force causes my hand to be cut. Was that an accident? I was not planning on cutting my hand or expecting the blade to break. The odds of a tree limb falling on a car, the handle breaking an engine on an airplane failing can be reduced by proper/vigilant maintenance. By buying quality. By planning ahead....BUT the unplanned event can occur and IS an accident. They are not deliberate acts. The teenagers yesterday pointing a gun at another and "the gun goes off"...A lot of "things" could have prevented the occurrence...a lot of domino's lined up. Remove any one and the event does not occur...BUT the gun went off and a girl is dead. An accident NOT a deliberate act. I am quite certain that this pilot was NOT trying to kill himself or others. His actions/inactions lack of planning/weather/plane/weight/performance were ALL factors that lead to the accident. Fault finding vs. fact finding are just another failure that will lead to another unplanned undesirable event...OR another ACCIDENT to occur.

My first thought when I saw that listing was that he showed an engine TT but not an airframe. That time seemed low for that airframe, although admittedly it's probably a "since TBO" time. But as others have said, that's why you invest your money up front, so when you finally get the plane you want you can fly it instead of investing a lot more later.

I think what he is trying to say is all accidents are personal to us as pilots. This one especially so because two people lost their lives in a Mooney. I think many of us agree this particular accident angers us because it was preventable. No one here is being a dick. It's just really hard to stomach that these people died because the pilot wasn't able to control the approach to landing. I'm no expert but he was on his second go around and that tells us a lot. He was clearly having trouble controlling the airspeed, angle of approach or both. Point is this one hurts and we're all just trying to understand it and prevent it from happening again. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Take the rest of the day off Charles and get down there pronto only cure I can think of. Really hope it check out good

Whoever is the "victor," seems clear America is the loser. Sad...

Skip that and estimate cases. Then move to kegs for 20 Jan - 31 Dec 2017 . . . regardless of the "victor."

I'm trying to calculate how many bottles that adds up to between now and November.

I'm doing the Trump-Hillary drinking game and I was drunk after 5 minutes. It's sad that in this great country we have, we have to choose between these two!

Triumph Daytona 675R or a 73 Triumph GT6 depending on the weather.

This seems to have struck a nerve with you. I am anything BUT combative on this forum, but I have to say that annealing my own plug gaskets is one of the least dangerous things one can do to their plane. To insinuate that I am compromising the safety of myself, family, and friends is insulting. I take great pride in the proper maintenance of my aircraft. I personally perform as much of that maintenance myself not only to save money but also to assure that it's done correctly and completely. How many big spenders go the extra mile to periodically inspect and monitor their exhaust valves for potential problems? To set the record straight belonging to the CB Club does NOT translate to cutting corners with safety. Of course spending $3.60 on plug gaskets is NOTHING compared to the thousands I spend annually on upgrades and non-essential maintenance. Okay, rant off.[emoji846] Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It's the "wing removal switch". Wing one, two or lock. It's primarily used to remove the wing for resealing. Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Who has ever experienced an AOA device failure? Stall warnings are the most common type of AOA sensing device. Anyone experience a stall warning or other AOA device give wrong readings? Ice over? Outright fail? How common are these failures and how do they manifest?

Try that CG arm in a Bo...

Good daay mate, my son in law is from Sydney, he's been in the states for 11 yrs or so, goes back to Sydney every December for a month.

Welcome! I have always wondered how they got these planes over there. Ferry tanks across the Pacific?

'78 J useful load of 970. If I'm going far and there are no mountains in the way I like to cruise at either 6500 or 7500, 2500 RPM, WOT, around 9.2 GPH (just barely LOP) getting about 157 KTAS. With mountains I'm usually between 9000 and 11,000, 2500 RPM, WOT, around 8.7 GPH going around 150 TAS. My wife does not like to sit more than about 3 hours. At 9 GPH, plus 10 gallon reserve, plus an extra 3 gallons for the climb, I only need 40 gallons at liftoff to do that (and go 450NM). That's 233# of 100LL. 970 - 233 = 737# of people and bags. If I max out the baggage at 120# I can still carry 617# of people. That's 3 big (206#) people or 4 small (154#) people. What my wife actually now prefers to do when it's just the two of us is to sit in the back seat. She has more leg room and can put her 'stuff' on the other seat in back. She downloads a few movies or TV shows to her phone before we leave. We plug the headphone out from her phone into the audio in jack in the back seat so she can hear the audio over her NC headset. I put the intercomm on isolate so her audio isn't interrupted by ATC. When she wants to talk to me she taps me on the shoulder and I put the intercomm back to ALL. When she is ready to go back to watching her movie she tells me to put it back to isolate (or I could use crew too). She's not very tall and says she can see better from the back seat too.

My wife and I went from o69 to KCRQ and back today to visit family. 2h10m there and 2h35m returning. Doing this in a car is impossible! Doing this on a conventional airline would not be pleasant. Doing it in a Mooney - Wow!! Icing on the cake: for the first time my wife said she was really comfortable in the plane with a blanket she brought from home and that the blanket was staying in the plane. She also said "you woke me up on final and I was so comfortable". Wow!! (again). That blanket IS staying in the plane!!!!

As long as the senders are still providing a resistance reading and don't have any "Dead" spots the calibration process will compensate for most of the inaccuracies. It is a 5 point calibration and you get to pick the 5 points. For example you put 5 gallons in and them tell it there is 5 gallons in the tank. Then repeat for the other 4 points. It will create a lookup table and interpolate between the points.