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#21 Seth

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 09:34 PM

Skeptic-  Interesting that you want a comparison between the 252 and Missile.

 

When I decided to upgrade from my 1967 F, I looked at Older Ovations which were out of my price range, M20S Eagles to then upgrade, slim pickings at the time, the 252 (my initial favoriate), and then the Missile, which was mainly an afterthought.

 

After looking at a few 252's and flying a Missile, I did the comparison, and yes, the Missile does burn more per hour.  With my type of flying though, to make the 252 work, I'd have to go up into oxygen territory, and that's not my mission at this time.  The Missile outperforms the 252 below 10,000, and outperforms early Ovations as well (weight vs power).  The Missile and Rocket conversions are a big reason the factory started producing the TLS/Bravo and Ovation.

 

I decided I didn't need the altitude of the 252, and I was worried about the turbo.  As many people have mentioned, once you go turbo, it's hard to go back.  I decided for the type of flying I do, which is almost a 50/50 mix of cross country and local fun flying, I figured I'd go with the Missile. Plus, the Missiles I looked at were very well taken care of birds vs the 252's I looked at.  I purchased a less expnsive bird both now and at overhaul with no turbo to worry about.  That being said, boy is the 252 a heck of an airplane.  Parker's 252 has been converted to the Encore, higher useful load, better brakes, and an additional 10 HP.  I'm not sure if every 252 can be converted come overhaul time or just certain aircraft built after a certain point.

 

My choice in upgrade came down to the 252 or the Missile in the end.  The reason I decided not to go the M20J from the M20F is I figured to spend that much more for 10 knots . . . it just didn't make sense at the time.  At this time however, I do understand the extra differences of the J including a much better avionics package.  The panel and avionics will be a huge step up for anyone coming out of a C,E, or F to a J,K,M,R,TN.  My avionics in the F were fine.  However, they are no comparison to even many of the factory avionics stil in my Missile (along with the added updates).

 

-Seth


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Based at KGAI - Gaithersburg, MD
N1165N - 1983 Mooney M20J Missile 300
N9567M - 1967 Mooney M20F (former)

#22 skeptic

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:48 PM

Just curious.....what would the approximate cruise TAS and fuel burn be in a Missile at around 14000 feet?  I am wondering how it would compare to a 252 in the mid-teen altitudes.



#23 RJBrown

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:39 PM

A normally aspirated engine is down to about 50% at 12,500'. At that point the normally aspirated 300hp engine burns about 12-13 gph. Above about 10,000 the 252 would start to pull away. At 17 the missile would be slower but a 252 pulled back to the same speed would burn about the same fuel. Fuel burned equals horsepower generated. Both airframes are the same size so with equal fuel flow you would expect equal airspeed at the same altitudes. The 252 would go faster and burn more fuel and generate more power up high. The reason for the turbo is altitude. The 252 (or Encore) is probably the most efficient high flier out there.

#24 BobAustin

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:46 AM

I have Missile #5 that I had converted in 1995.  Since then in addition to the Missile I have had a Cessna 340, an Eclipse jet (don't ask) and more recently a 2007 Cirrus SR22TN.  Have complete flight records and I love my Missile.  Here are a few from my log for the high altitude question.

 

14000', 2550 rpm, 18.5 map, 12.6 gph, 75 gal fuel solo, 178 TAS

15000', 2600 rpm, 17.8 map, 12.4 gph, 80 gal fuel solo, 175 TAS

17500', 2600 rpm, 16.1 map, 11.1 gph, 75 gal fuel solo, 170 TAS

 

I usually run 75 ROP.

 

The reason I sold the Cirrus was although it would make 200k at 17500 @ 17.5gph   I was running at 85% power (wondered how long the engine and exhaust plumbing would stand up @85%) the $350K Cirrus would only save 15 minutes on my normal 650 NM trips TX to CO. In addition the depreciation was much higher and for the above trip it burned about 15 -20 gal more than the Missile.

 

Bob

85 201 Missile


Bob

Formerly C340, SR22 TN and Eclipse 500 Jet

 


#25 skeptic

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:52 AM

I have Missile #5 that I had converted in 1995.  Since then in addition to the Missile I have had a Cessna 340, an Eclipse jet (don't ask) and more recently a 2007 Cirrus SR22TN.  Have complete flight records and I love my Missile.  Here are a few from my log for the high altitude question.

 

14000', 2550 rpm, 18.5 map, 12.6 gph, 75 gal fuel solo, 178 TAS

15000', 2600 rpm, 17.8 map, 12.4 gph, 80 gal fuel solo, 175 TAS

17500', 2600 rpm, 16.1 map, 11.1 gph, 75 gal fuel solo, 170 TAS

 

I usually run 75 ROP.

 

The reason I sold the Cirrus was although it would make 200k at 17500 @ 17.5gph   I was running at 85% power (wondered how long the engine and exhaust plumbing would stand up @85%) the $350K Cirrus would only save 15 minutes on my normal 650 NM trips TX to CO. In addition the depreciation was much higher and for the above trip it burned about 15 -20 gal more than the Missile.

 

Bob

85 201 Missile

 

Interesting....anyone have comparable cruise data for a 252?



#26 Seth

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:24 PM

Interesting....anyone have comparable cruise data for a 252?

 

Parker?


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N1165N - 1983 Mooney M20J Missile 300
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#27 skeptic

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:31 PM

I would love to see some "real world" cruise data from a 252 owner -- power setting, fuel flow, TAS, etc.   I am wondering how it compares to the Missle at around 14 or 15,000 feet.



#28 Zane Williams

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:10 PM

Well, from a 262 (231 with a 252 engine bolted on the front):

 

I run it at 28" MP, 2500 RPM, leaned to peak TIT.  I open the cowl flaps as necessary to keep CHTs below 380.  In cold air they are often closed, and all cylinders are always in the 350-380 range. At those settings, I get the following, which varies based on OAT and the like:

 

10,000 ft - 170KTAS

12,000 to 15,000 ft - 170 -175 KTAS

15,000 to 18,000 ft - 180-185 KTAS

 

All of that is on 11.5 - 12.0 GPH.  I don't like the mask, so I don't fly higher than 18k.  I've seen Parker post better numbers, but he has the Encore conversion with 10 more HP, and I think runs his LOP.

 

It will go faster if you put more fuel through it, but I don't.  This is about 75% power.  You can also pull the power back to 25" 2500 RPM and get 10 GPH at the cost of about 10-15 kts.  These numbers also come from multiple trips checking a TAS calculator and winds.  I have not done the 4-square GPS thing.

 

Also, I suspect you will very rarely find yourself wanting to cruise at 14,000 - 15,000 ft. You're on oxygen, but below the really good tailwinds. Most of my time in the 262 is spent at 9-10k with a headwind or 17-18k with a tailwind.  Very rarely am I cruising around in between.

 

I've been meaning to try LOP, but my engine starts to rough right around peak TIT, so I have not put much effort into that.


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#29 skeptic

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 01:01 AM

Thanks for providing the 252/262 cruise data.  Interesting comparison to the Missile performance in the mid-teen altitudes.



#30 Seth

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:15 PM

The Missile is for better or equal speed below 10,000 to 12,000 with higher fuel burn.  At altitude, the speed will be less, but you can take advatange of tailwinds (if you have oxygen on board).

 

At the same exact speeds at different altitudes, I'm guessing the 252 is more efficient, though I'd have to check.  If I were flying in the mountain often, I'd go with the 252, but where I'm based, I didn't want a turbo yet.  So I picked the Missile.  Also price wise, the Missile was at the time significantly less than a good 252.

 

Best bank for buck in the turbo mooney world may be the F with the Ray Jay - as long as it's working.  A 231 is a good plane as well.  The 252 and Encore may have been the most efficient Mooney's made.

 

-Seth


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N9567M - 1967 Mooney M20F (former)

#31 Parker_Woodruff

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:05 PM

Interesting....anyone have comparable cruise data for a 252?

 

Approximate numbers depending on the atmospheric conditions...All numbers Lean of Peak.

 

30" MP, 2550-2575 RPM, 11.8 GPH

 

8,000 ft - 160 KTAS

14,000 ft - 175 KTAS

16,000 ft - 181-183 KTAS

17,000 ft - 187-190 KTAS

FL190 - 190-191 KTAS

FL210 - 191-195 KTAS.  On the high side of this at the end of the flight when I'm lighter.

 

It's everything I've wanted in a cross-country airplane.


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#32 Mcstealth

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:49 PM

Those are some impresive numbers on that fuel burn.

 

Where would the Beeches, Columbias, and Cirrius's be? 15-17 LOP?



#33 fantom

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:46 PM

Approximate numbers depending on the atmospheric conditions...All numbers Lean of Peak.

 

30" MP, 2550-2575 RPM, 11.8 GPH

 

8,000 ft - 160 KTAS

14,000 ft - 175 KTAS

16,000 ft - 181-183 KTAS

17,000 ft - 187-190 KTAS

FL190 - 190-191 KTAS

FL210 - 191-195 KTAS.  On the high side of this at the end of the flight when I'm lighter.

 

It's everything I've wanted in a cross-country airplane.

 

I hate you, Parker ;)


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