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Mooneyjet

Turbine or diesel

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Hey guys does anyone know about a turbine conversion on the old mooneys that in my books would make it the ultimate hot rod, how about a diesel conversion just getting ideas .

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Would be a waste with a turbine - airframe can't handle high airspeed.


Diesel would be cool, though.

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Neither exist today.  A diesel is intriguing and could be very practical, a turbine...notsomuch.  


Before the economic implosion, Mooney was supposedly partnered with RR to develop a Mooney with their small turboprop engine, but their motivation was as an export option to areas without 100LL, and it was going to be optimized for cruising in the teens instead of the flight levels, and likely would have been no faster than the Acclaim, but a lot more expensive.


There are turbine conversions for the 210 and A/B36 Bonanza available, and they're not big sellers as far as I know.  The knock on them is the fairly limited range compared to their un-modified versions.  On a long trip with a fuel stop their speed advantage can be negated by the non-turbine version skipping the fuel stop.  They do look cool, though, and that is worth a lot to some people.

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Quote: Skywarrior

Would be a waste with a turbine - airframe can't handle high airspeed.

Diesel would be cool, though.

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Quote: Mooneyjet

Hey guys does anyone know about a turbine conversion on the old mooneys that in my books would make it the ultimate hot rod, how about a diesel conversion just getting ideas .

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They already is a turbine Mooney. It's called a TBM850.

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Quick Exam on (certified) Aviation.


Which term doesn't belong?


a.  Reliable


b.  Low cost


c.  Tested version of a 200HP Thielert


 

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The Mooney is the only non turbo diesel that we own.  My car is a diesel Jetta with over 350k miles and still gets over 50mph on the hi way.  Absolute zero problems and very little preventive Maint.  My wife has a new Passat that is getting in the high 40's. 

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Keep your eyes out for the results of this recently announced partnership towards a big-block version of the already certified and in production Austro diesel engines used in the Diamond DA-42 twin...


http://www.steyr-motors.com/news/news-single/steyr-motors-and-austro-engine-form-development-partnership-for-280hp-6-cylinder-aircraft-engine/b3cba3e7eddf7ed04ee7fd0811f582aa/


 


 

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The fuel specifics of a turbine are about twice as bad as a piston engine, ~.8-1.0 BSFC vs a .39-.42 for a LOP gasoline IO-360 or big bore Continental.  Someone is developing a 200HP turbine engine, and its 18 GPH.


The BSFC of a Centurion 2.0 isnt much better, around .38.  To get that it takes a turbocharger, water cooling, a gearbox, electronic fuel injection, a myriad of hoses and wires, and a gearbox overhaul (?35 grand) every 300 hours.  It is flat-rated to 155 HP, so you must fly it between 10-20K to realize the efficiency and cruise power advantages of the design.


Oshosh 2011 had the SMA 230 HP direct drive diesel engine on display.  For 230 HP is looked massive, complex, and expensive.  It is. SMA claims a BSFC of .365 and a 2,400 TBO.  That's still around 10 GPH.   It is available now for 75K plus installation, and it wouldnt be a good replacement for a 200 HP IO-360, but rather, might replace the already superb IO-550 in an Ovation.  No takers, obviously.


Continental's TD-300 is a copy of that, one was present as well.  Neither of the sales staff had any idea about them, and no timeline, nothing really.   A nice conversation piece.

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Quote: jetdriven

The fuel specifics of a turbine are about twice as bad as a piston engine, ~.8-1.0 BSFC vs a .39-.42 for a LOP gasoline IO-360 or big bore Continental.

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Quote: jetdriven

 Someone is developing a 200HP turbine engine, and its 18 GPH.

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Quote: jerry-N5911Q

Well, I also have a JetProp with a PT6A-21 in a Mirage airframe.  With the old Lycoming 350 HP engine it would do 215 KTAS at FL230 on 22 GPH.   That's more fuel than the POH calls for, but the fuel flow was essential to keep the CHT in the green.   The turbine will do 215 KTAS on 25 GPH at FL230, so it is not twice as bad in practice, it is 10% worse in that example.   And JetA is cheaper per gallon. 

Forced low by ATC, yeah, it is a drag to burn 25 GPH at 160 KTAS at 5000 feet.   That's why we climb as high as possible on most flights.  

Too bad the turbine engine costs so much to buy because it sure is smooth, powerful and reliable. 

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Quote: Shadrach

Wasn't the Lyc in the Mirage supposed to be run LOP per the POH?  I've been told by 2 different sources that most of the problems with that engine came from owners that did not know any better, running "near" POH power settings but "just a little richer to be on the safe side"...

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At diesel conversion might be feasible if a guy was starting from scratch. Very true with regards of non experimental aircraft it seems like they gouche you for every certified part

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Quote: xftrplt

Quick Exam on (certified) Aviation.

Which term doesn't belong?

a.  Reliable

b.  Low cost

c.  Tested version of a 200HP Thielert

 

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The problem with conversions, either turbine, or diesel, is high cost. In the case of the turbine, a small, suitable turbine like the RR engines, cost about $500,000. That doesn't include the prop, motor mounts, cowling, new instruments, engine controls and modifications to the fuel system. The diesel conversion would be much cheaper, but in no way cost effective. Even if say Delta Hawk, were able to match the price of a brand new Lycoming IO-360, you still have to buy a new prop, new cowl and baffle system (needing paint of course) , new motor mounts, firewall forward kit and some sort of mods for the fuel system. Then of course all the labor to do the conversion. For the few bucks you save on fuel, not worth it.


Faced with this option, 90%+ would go with a new gas engine. Only if there were no more gasoline available (not likely) would some consider the diesel. However, in this case, a lot of people would simply sell their planes for whatever price they could get and quit flying.

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Quote: stevesm20b

They already is a turbine Mooney. It's called a TBM850.

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Quote: DaV8or

The problem with conversions, either turbine, or diesel, is high cost. In the case of the turbine, a small, suitable turbine like the RR engines, cost about $500,000. That doesn't include the prop, motor mounts, cowling, new instruments, engine controls and modifications to the fuel system. The diesel conversion would be much cheaper, but in no way cost effective. Even if say Delta Hawk, were able to match the price of a brand new Lycoming IO-360, you still have to buy a new prop, new cowl and baffle system (needing paint of course) , new motor mounts, firewall forward kit and some sort of mods for the fuel system. Then of course all the labor to do the conversion. For the few bucks you save on fuel, not worth it.

Faced with this option, 90%+ would go with a new gas engine. Only if there were no more gasoline available (not likely) would some consider the diesel. However, in this case, a lot of people would simply sell their planes for whatever price they could get and quit flying.

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Quote: borealone

Keep your eyes out for the results of this recently announced partnership towards a big-block version of the already certified and in production Austro diesel engines used in the Diamond DA-42 twin...

http://www.steyr-motors.com/news/news-single/steyr-motors-and-austro-engine-form-development-partnership-for-280hp-6-cylinder-aircraft-engine/b3cba3e7eddf7ed04ee7fd0811f582aa/

 

 

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Does anybody know if the subaru boxer diesel has had any use in the experimental department.  It would seem the boxer configuration would be ideal.

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Quote: DaV8or

The problem with conversions, either turbine, or diesel, is high cost. In the case of the turbine, a small, suitable turbine like the RR engines, cost about $500,000. That doesn't include the prop, motor mounts, cowling, new instruments, engine controls and modifications to the fuel system. The diesel conversion would be much cheaper, but in no way cost effective. Even if say Delta Hawk, were able to match the price of a brand new Lycoming IO-360, you still have to buy a new prop, new cowl and baffle system (needing paint of course) , new motor mounts, firewall forward kit and some sort of mods for the fuel system. Then of course all the labor to do the conversion. For the few bucks you save on fuel, not worth it.

Faced with this option, 90%+ would go with a new gas engine. Only if there were no more gasoline available (not likely) would some consider the diesel. However, in this case, a lot of people would simply sell their planes for whatever price they could get and quit flying.

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Hi everyone


Here is the diesel aero engine you should keep an eye on. You probably have not heard of it before. It is the Engineered Propulsion Systems (EPS) Vision 350. The company is in New Richmond, Wisconsin.


It is a similar size and weight and cost as a new turbo Lyc IO-540 (angle valve) or a new turbo Cont 550. It's a horizontally opposed 8, with shared crank throws, geared, with a powerhead similar to the latest Mercedes 4.4L diesel.


Also, here is a drawing of the engine installed in an Aerostar nacelle.


Right now, I can go about 205-210 knots at altitude on 26 gph total (65% power), that is on TN 540s...AFAIK the 601P is the only TN pressurized airplane on the market. With the 350 diesel that becomes (roughly) 220 knots at 22 gph total (65%)....or 242 knots at 32 gph total (85%).


Looks like 65% is a good place to run a compression ignition engine, too.


This engine as a retrofit to Malibus will be a world beater. Ooops, Alan Klapmeier has already figured that out, but hasn't told anyone yet, http://www.kestrel.aero/aeroworks.html


A Gippsaero GA8 Airvan with one of these will be a world beater as well...not to mention a heavy fuel UAV engine the perfect size for a new Predator with excellent range. Retrofit Zezzna 421s! The end of the schitzo-GTSIO 520.....


Anyway, take a look.

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