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Parting Out 1968 M20F Mooney


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#41 PilotDerek

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:58 PM


Quote: smccray


 Back of the evelope, estimate avionics at $16k- $12k for the 2 430s, $1k for the 327, $1k for the audio panel, $2k for the JPI.  The STEC isn't worth much- if you start running numbers it's really only an option for the experimental crowd. 


Scott


Not sure how you can say the STec isn't worth anything. Have you priced a new STEC-30 out or the JPI 930? Unless his photo was from when all his avionics were first installed a few years ago, they are all in very good if not excellent condition. He, of course, cannot get new prices but far more reasonable than what you priced them out for. I don't disagree that when all is said and done selling whole might be the better way to go. I know I for one would sell it whole, but I also do not have the time, storage, or patience to part out a plane. If someone does buy it whole I will be happy that a Mooney was saved, but a little sad that I cannot take advantage of good avionics/parts at a good price.


 




#42 knute

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:09 PM


Quote: PilotDerek



Quote: smccray


 Back of the evelope, estimate avionics at $16k- $12k for the 2 430s, $1k for the 327, $1k for the audio panel, $2k for the JPI.  The STEC isn't worth much- if you start running numbers it's really only an option for the experimental crowd. 


Scott


Not sure how you can say the STec isn't worth anything. Have you priced a new STEC-30 out or the JPI 930? Unless his photo was from when all his avionics were first installed a few years ago, they are all in very good if not excellent condition. He, of course, cannot get new prices but far more reasonable than what you priced them out for. I don't disagree that when all is said and done selling whole might be the better way to go. I know I for one would sell it whole, but I also do not have the time, storage, or patience to part out a plane. If someone does buy it whole I will be happy that a Mooney was saved, but a little sad that I cannot take advantage of good avionics/parts at a good price.


 





S-Tec has been known to have a policy to issue the STC for installation to a specific serial numbered airplane only, and is not willing to authorize an STC to transfer used S-Tec equipment to another airplane.  For all intents and purposes, this makes it worthless for use on a certified airplane, hence the comment that it's "really only an option for the experimental crowd".



#43 KSMooniac

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:13 PM


Quote: knute





S-Tec has been known to have a policy to issue the STC for installation to a specific serial numbered airplane only, and is not willing to authorize an STC to transfer used S-Tec equipment to another airplane.  For all intents and purposes, this makes it worthless for use on a certified airplane, hence the comment that it's "really only an option for the experimental crowd".







I believe that is true, or was the last time I heard about such a policy.  They do, however, have a process to transfer the STC to a different aircraft that involves sending all of the equipment back to them for an "inspection" which costs just about as much as new equipment, and then they'll give you new paperwork.  Their own worst enemy IMO, and a reason why their business has gone down the drain after Cobham acquired it...



#44 PilotDerek

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:15 PM

Interesting, never heard anything about that. Ok I stand corrected on the STEC, but the rest of my comments stand (until someone else corrects me) J



#45 DaV8or

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 10:27 PM


Quote: PilotDerek


If someone does buy it whole I will be happy that a Mooney was saved, but a little sad that I cannot take advantage of good avionics/parts at a good price.



Don't be too sad. He hasn't actually listed any prices on the parts, so you don't actually know that you would be getting a great deal on avionics or parts. Sounds like he believes that the prices for used Mooney parts is going to skyrocket in the near future, so I would guess he's going to price them high.



#46 DaV8or

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 10:29 PM


Quote: knute


S-Tec has been known to have a policy to issue the STC for installation to a specific serial numbered airplane only, and is not willing to authorize an STC to transfer used S-Tec equipment to another airplane.  For all intents and purposes, this makes it worthless for use on a certified airplane, hence the comment that it's "really only an option for the experimental crowd".




This is true of many STC'd parts. Before anybody buys a used mod, they had better check with the manufacturer of that mod first to see if and what is involved with transfering the STC.



#47 peott

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 10:38 PM

My initial thought was that the experimental crowd might go for the autopilot but, I am probably wrong there.  You can buy autopilots that are way better than an S-Tec for way less money if you have an experimental.  That is a major component and of course would have to bring $6500 to $7500 for my numbers to come out.  As of today, I have only had two calls on the engine and neither of them wanted to pay more than core value.  I think the cold hard truth is that there just isn't a lot of money being spent on older general aviation airplanes right now.  You know the old saying that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear....I think it is just a fact of life that you can take a 1968 Mooney M20F and do anything and everything you want to it but you will still just have a 1968 Mooney M20F.  It will never be a 201 or a 231.  It will never have electric gear or electric flaps.  If you ask the same money for a '68 M20F as people can buy a nice 201 or 231, they will take the newer airframe and more modern systems any time.  I knew I ran this risk when I over improved this plane but, it is one damn nice plane to fly and I have enjoyed every minute of flying it.  I might end up just putting it up for sale, as is, and see what happens or I might just get it annualed, have my son who is an A&P install the one piece belly STC, just to get it installed, and fly it a few more years and see if the market for small planes improves.



#48 rbridges

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 10:48 PM


Quote: peott


My initial thought was that the experimental crowd might go for the autopilot but, I am probably wrong there.  You can buy autopilots that are way better than an S-Tec for way less money if you have an experimental.  That is a major component and of course would have to bring $6500 to $7500 for my numbers to come out.  As of today, I have only had two calls on the engine and neither of them wanted to pay more than core value.  I think the cold hard truth is that there just isn't a lot of money being spent on older general aviation airplanes right now.  You know the old saying that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear....I think it is just a fact of life that you can take a 1968 Mooney M20F and do anything and everything you want to it but you will still just have a 1968 Mooney M20F.  It will never be a 201 or a 231.  It will never have electric gear or electric flaps.  If you ask the same money for a '68 M20F as people can buy a nice 201 or 231, they will take the newer airframe and more modern systems any time.  I knew I ran this risk when I over improved this plane but, it is one damn nice plane to fly and I have enjoyed every minute of flying it.  I might end up just putting it up for sale, as is, and see what happens or I might just get it annualed, have my son who is an A&P install the one piece belly STC, just to get it installed, and fly it a few more years and see if the market for small planes improves.




 I don't know if I missed why it's out of annual, but if you get that plane right on paper, you will have people wearing your phone out to get it for $60K.  The johnson bar/hydraulic flaps are not a deal killer.  A 201 with that panel would run tens of thousands more than your asking.  The performance has to be pretty close with the windshield/cowling mod.  I guarantee you get the plane legal to fly and you will sell it.



#49 PilotDerek

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 11:06 PM


Quote: rbridges



Quote: peott


My initial thought was that the experimental crowd might go for the autopilot but, I am probably wrong there.  You can buy autopilots that are way better than an S-Tec for way less money if you have an experimental.  That is a major component and of course would have to bring $6500 to $7500 for my numbers to come out.  As of today, I have only had two calls on the engine and neither of them wanted to pay more than core value.  I think the cold hard truth is that there just isn't a lot of money being spent on older general aviation airplanes right now.  You know the old saying that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear....I think it is just a fact of life that you can take a 1968 Mooney M20F and do anything and everything you want to it but you will still just have a 1968 Mooney M20F.  It will never be a 201 or a 231.  It will never have electric gear or electric flaps.  If you ask the same money for a '68 M20F as people can buy a nice 201 or 231, they will take the newer airframe and more modern systems any time.  I knew I ran this risk when I over improved this plane but, it is one damn nice plane to fly and I have enjoyed every minute of flying it.  I might end up just putting it up for sale, as is, and see what happens or I might just get it annualed, have my son who is an A&P install the one piece belly STC, just to get it installed, and fly it a few more years and see if the market for small planes improves.




 I don't know if I missed why it's out of annual, but if you get that plane right on paper, you will have people wearing your phone out to get it for $60K.  The johnson bar/hydraulic flaps are not a deal killer.  A 201 with that panel would run tens of thousands more than your asking.  The performance has to be pretty close with the windshield/cowling mod.  I guarantee you get the plane legal to fly and you will sell it.




 I agree. As I said before if I wasn't already closing on a plane, this is one I would have checked out. I have already saved the pictures of your panel because that is a future project I would like to do and you have a great layout. There are very few M20F's hat are as complete as yours. Annual’d with one piece belly installed, your low engine and prop time you should be able to get 70k, your phone will explode priced 60k or less.



#50 bgpilot1

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 12:22 AM

Seriously, annual the plane and have it airworthy with all paperwork.  The AOPA Aircraft Valuation is around $80,000 without the cowl mod.  Most older 201s don't have the avionics in this plane.  List it with a broker and let them do the work.  I see no reason with the above done that you can't get a buyer for 65K.  Look at what else is out there for 65k...not much else compares.  Someone looking for a 201 or similar retractable will appreciate this plane and realize the benefits of the johnson bar and not be concerned with 5 knots less speed.  I would think it would be faster than any pre 78 J model.  Ebay is a good option as well as barnstormers.  



#51 DaV8or

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 12:57 AM

Seriously,


All American has this '67 M20F for sale at $79,000 and it's pretty nice. Paul, your's is a lot nicer. One of the best equiped Fs I've seen anywhere. In many ways better than many Js.



#52 peott

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 08:46 AM

That plane is one nice M20F.  It has just about everything that mine has and more.  The different engine is a huge factor as are electric gear and flaps.  That puts this plane in the same catagory as a 201.  I should have gone ahead and put electric gear and flaps on my plane but, I ran out of energy and got tired of having the plane in pieces before we thought of that.  I would take the advertised plane over my plane any day.  If you have ever flown with the Johnson bar, you know just how annoying it is.  Let's all try to pay attention and see how long All American has that M20F on the market.  You can try to sell something but, until it is actually sold and you have money in hand, it doesn't mean anything.  Just because they have it priced at $79k doesn't mean it will bring that much.  And, if it sits there for a year before the owner decides to take less.......you know what I mean.



#53 PilotDerek

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 10:10 AM


Quote: peott


That plane is one nice M20F.  It has just about everything that mine has and more.  The different engine is a huge factor as are electric gear and flaps.  That puts this plane in the same catagory as a 201.  I should have gone ahead and put electric gear and flaps on my plane but, I ran out of energy and got tired of having the plane in pieces before we thought of that.  I would take the advertised plane over my plane any day.  If you have ever flown with the Johnson bar, you know just how annoying it is.  Let's all try to pay attention and see how long All American has that M20F on the market.  You can try to sell something but, until it is actually sold and you have money in hand, it doesn't mean anything.  Just because they have it priced at $79k doesn't mean it will bring that much.  And, if it sits there for a year before the owner decides to take less.......you know what I mean.




 


Paul,


A couple flaws in your response IMO. That plane does not have electric flaps, they are manual. Yes it has electric gear but many of us like/prefer the Johnson bar. I've seen a few people on this sight comment that they wish their 201 had a Johnson bar. Electric is easy but the bar is flawless. I honestly think your plane has more to offer than this one. The dual 430's and a huge bonus in my mind is the EDI 930. That is what I want in my plane. It replaces all the factory gauges. Just because of that item you still have room on your panel. The plane that All American has is nice but I do think it is priced a little high in today's market. I still believe your aircraft (if annual’d) is a better bird than All American's.


 



#54 smccray

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 10:17 AM


Quote: PilotDerek



Quote: smccray


 Back of the evelope, estimate avionics at $16k- $12k for the 2 430s, $1k for the 327, $1k for the audio panel, $2k for the JPI.  The STEC isn't worth much- if you start running numbers it's really only an option for the experimental crowd. 


Scott


Not sure how you can say the STec isn't worth anything. Have you priced a new STEC-30 out or the JPI 930? Unless his photo was from when all his avionics were first installed a few years ago, they are all in very good if not excellent condition. He, of course, cannot get new prices but far more reasonable than what you priced them out for. I don't disagree that when all is said and done selling whole might be the better way to go. I know I for one would sell it whole, but I also do not have the time, storage, or patience to part out a plane. If someone does buy it whole I will be happy that a Mooney was saved, but a little sad that I cannot take advantage of good avionics/parts at a good price.


 






The JPI costs $5k new retail and comes with new probes and a warranty.  Can frequently get a bit of a break on the install buying from a dealer- the install is over 40 hrs of work.  My number also assumes you'd have to replace the probes.  It may be a little low without the probes, would definately be low with the probes, so call it $3k- you're still well over $5k installed for someone elses used equipment likely saving you less than $2k than buying new. The ideal buyer is someone with a 930 display in a 4 cylinder powered airplane that went tango uniform AND that JPI isn't willing to repair/replace for a low cost.  That's a tough person to find.


Again this is back of the evelope on the avionics so I may be off a little, but if $16k vs. $17k from avioinics makes a difference on the decision to part out or sell the plane whole this is a pretty slim margin.  I still believe $40k for all the listed components (engine, prop, avionics, etc.)  is a very generous accounting for the lot.  That said, I'm frequently amazed what some people will pay for used equipment so my estimates may be low.


 


 



#55 smccray

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 10:25 AM


Quote: PilotDerek



Quote: peott


That plane is one nice M20F.  It has just about everything that mine has and more.  The different engine is a huge factor as are electric gear and flaps.  That puts this plane in the same catagory as a 201.  I should have gone ahead and put electric gear and flaps on my plane but, I ran out of energy and got tired of having the plane in pieces before we thought of that.  I would take the advertised plane over my plane any day.  If you have ever flown with the Johnson bar, you know just how annoying it is.  Let's all try to pay attention and see how long All American has that M20F on the market.  You can try to sell something but, until it is actually sold and you have money in hand, it doesn't mean anything.  Just because they have it priced at $79k doesn't mean it will bring that much.  And, if it sits there for a year before the owner decides to take less.......you know what I mean.




 


Paul,


A couple flaws in your response IMO. That plane does not have electric flaps, they are manual. Yes it has electric gear but many of us like/prefer the Johnson bar. I've seen a few people on this sight comment that they wish their 201 had a Johnson bar. Electric is easy but the bar is flawless. I honestly think your plane has more to offer than this one. The dual 430's and a huge bonus in my mind is the EDI 930. That is what I want in my plane. It replaces all the factory gauges. Just because of that item you still have room on your panel. The plane that All American has is nice but I do think it is priced a little high in today's market. I still believe your aircraft (if annual’d) is a better bird than All American's.


 




I'm not going to compare the two planes, but make life easier for your potential buyer.  Today it's a scary proposition since it's out of annual.  If you obtain a ferry permit and move the plane to a MSC for a prebuy it will give your potential buyer confidence that they're not buying hangar queen, they're buying a plane that has flown recently with an excelent panel at a discount on the price due to the inactivity on the engine.  I would be very concerned with the idle time on the engine, but at least it's in KS not in FL.


Don't believe what some people tell you- airplanes that are priced right are selling.



#56 peott

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 11:37 AM

I was thinking about the idle time on the engine as well and at first I was thinking that could be an issue but, then I started to remember the last time I flew the plane....January 2011 before it went out of annual....and the weather we have had in Kansas since then.  We have had probably less than 6" of rain since January and one of the hottest, driest summers in history.  I really doubt that being ran once every four or five weeks in the last eight months, given the weather we have had is really going to put the engine in danger.  If it had been sitting in Florida or up north where they had record rainfall and the higher humidity that goes along with it, I might be concerned.  You couldn't have stored the engine in a better environment than we have had here in Wichita this year.  Every time we changed the oil.....it looked like new since it essentially was.  The plane has started within one revolution each and every time that I started it.  Again, I would hop in it and fly it anywhere....well...maybe not to Europe but, anywhere in the US and not give it a second thought.



#57 KSMooniac

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 12:36 PM

Paul, I'm in the camp of preferring a J-bar to electric gear, and a plane like yours is exactly what I had hoped to find 5 years ago when I was shopping...and I would've expect to pay $80k for such a plane without the LoPresti cowl or super-modern engine monitor.  I agree with the sentiments above that if you get it annualed you will have no problem selling it, even in this market, at $65k or perhaps more.  


I also feel the same way as many others here (and on the email lists) that hate to see a perfectly good airframe get broken down for scrap, especially one that has had so many improvements.  If it were hail-damaged, or flooded, or something along those lines then it would be much easier to swallow, but with just minor elevator damage that is easy enough to fix all of us Mooniacs would rather see it live to fly another day.



#58 bluehighwayflyer

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 01:15 PM

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#59 smccray

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 01:19 PM


Quote: peott


I was thinking about the idle time on the engine as well and at first I was thinking that could be an issue but, then I started to remember the last time I flew the plane....January 2011 before it went out of annual....and the weather we have had in Kansas since then.  We have had probably less than 6" of rain since January and one of the hottest, driest summers in history.  I really doubt that being ran once every four or five weeks in the last eight months, given the weather we have had is really going to put the engine in danger.  If it had been sitting in Florida or up north where they had record rainfall and the higher humidity that goes along with it, I might be concerned.  You couldn't have stored the engine in a better environment than we have had here in Wichita this year.  Every time we changed the oil.....it looked like new since it essentially was.  The plane has started within one revolution each and every time that I started it.  Again, I would hop in it and fly it anywhere....well...maybe not to Europe but, anywhere in the US and not give it a second thought.




 


As much as I agree with your assessment of the engine, I would expect the plane to sell at a discount being out of annual and sitting idle for the last 9 months.  There are others here who can speak to how the idle period would impact the attractiveness of the plane, but as a recent buyer it would definately give me pause and warrant further investigation before making a comittment to buy the plane.  I'd buy your plane as an investment and flip it myself if there were enough margin, but it's not my business so you'd get a better price selling to a dealer.


If I were in your shoes needing to get rid of the plane I would do one of two things- either a) complete the annual inspection and sell it at a discount or b) complete the annual inspection, put 100 hrs on the plane, and do oil analysis at every oil change.  I'm certainly not the best person to speak to the risks of selecting one option over the other, but that seems to be your options.


I probably wouldn't be your buyer as my wife wanted a newer airframe, but you'd find a buyer pretty quickly particularly if you put some time on the plane and prove that the engine/airframe is in good condition.



#60 bluehighwayflyer

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 01:21 PM

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