making a tiny bit of metal

[RobertE]

I change my oil every 25 hours and filter every 50. 

Today I saw about 10 very, very small flecks of what seemed to be aluminum (was non-ferrous) in the element.  The pieces were dandruff-sized or smaller.  My question is, what would you do next?

I've searched this forum for the topic and found one who posted Lycoming's recommendations (I've got an IO-360 A3B6 with about 1500 hours on it since new).  Their recommendation is to proceed as normal then check again after 50 hours.  Had I found 20 flecks their recommendation would have been to fly as normal but check after 25 hours, which is probably what I'll do.

Any other advice, though?  I've read that once the nitride on the cam is gone the lobe can wear significantly in as little as 5 hours, which would seem to contradict Lycoming's advice.  So I'm up for hearing opinions.  And is there anything that might explain this condition other than something beginning to fail?  I did make the mistake of flying home from Oshkosh with just 4 quarts of oil (misread the level enroute and didn't add enough to cover what is my normal 7 or 8 hours/quart consumption).  Might low oil have produced this result?  I probably ran at 4-5 quarts for 15 hours.

Thanks.

 

[MB65E]

Keep fresh oil in it. Pull the filter again in 10-15 hours and check it out . Keep running it. I think flight and fresh oil are the 2 single things that help these engines. 

I get to pull my filter next week too...

-Matt

[GeorgePerry]

First I'd consult with a qualified A&P or AI.  If you show them the filter or can describe the problem they should be able to give you some good advice.

What I can offer is a recommendation to get a better sense of what type of metal it is and if the amounts are cautionary.

If you still have the oil send it off for oil analysis.  I used AvLabs but there are several reputable companies that perform this service.  They'll be able to tell you how your metal content is compared to what a "normal" range should be.  

Also, if the report is normal, do it every other or every third oil change.  If you start seeing negative trends do it every time.  If your engine is making metal, especially the wrong kinds of metal, it's telling you it needs attention.

 

[DXB]

Unless I'm mistaken, aren't nonferrous silver flecks in the oil most likely to be aluminum from the piston pin caps?   If it was from the cam or lifters, it would be ferrous.  

After my plane sat 2.5 months getting the panel redone, I had a spike in wear metals and just a few minute nonferrous silver flecks detectable on close inspection of the filter over 3 oil changes.  Now the oil analysis is normalizing, and the flecks have completely disappeared at my most recent oil change.

[PTK]

14 hours ago, RobertE said:

I change my oil every 25 hours and filter every 50. 

Today I saw about 10 very, very small flecks of what seemed to be aluminum (was non-ferrous) in the element.  The pieces were dandruff-sized or smaller.  My question is, what would you do next?

I've searched this forum for the topic and found one who posted Lycoming's recommendations (I've got an IO-360 A3B6 with about 1500 hours on it since new).  Their recommendation is to proceed as normal then check again after 50 hours.  Had I found 20 flecks their recommendation would have been to fly as normal but check after 25 hours, which is probably what I'll do.

Any other advice, though?  I've read that once the nitride on the cam is gone the lobe can wear significantly in as little as 5 hours, which would seem to contradict Lycoming's advice.  So I'm up for hearing opinions.  And is there anything that might explain this condition other than something beginning to fail?  I did make the mistake of flying home from Oshkosh with just 4 quarts of oil (misread the level enroute and didn't add enough to cover what is my normal 7 or 8 hours/quart consumption).  Might low oil have produced this result?  I probably ran at 4-5 quarts for 15 hours.

Thanks.

 

You can send the oil filter and metal pieces if you still have them to Aviation Laboratories for analysis utilizing SEM (scanning electron microscopy.) You will know exactly where the metal is coming from. I've never had metal in my filter and have not done this. But I don't like question marks either, especially having to do with my engine! It's comforting to know that this level of technology is available to us. So for the 100$ or so it costs to examine the filter with SEM I wouldn't think twice.  Aviation Laboratories,  504-469-6751.

[Guest]

Early aluminum piston pin plugs are prone to failure.  Over one oil change period mine started to show quite a bit of aluminum in the filter.  I pulled all 8 cylinders until I found the failing pin plug, it was 3/16" shorter than the others.  Failure of the pin plug can lead to piston failure, cylinder failure and engine failure.

Early filter changes would be in order to monitor wear rate.

Clarence

[dooleypster]

Not likely as I believe the J model book says that 2.5 its (or thereabouts) is the minimum required.  It doesn't bother me at all if I land with 5 its remaining. I usually then bring it up to 7 and it stays that way for quite a while.  Every engine is of course different.  I agree with flying another 25 hours on a new filter, then checking again.

[ArtVandelay]

I found 1 sliver of aluminum in the oil itself (I filter the oil I drain to look for large particles. I find many dandruff size ferrous particles in the filter but Mike Busch video on metal in the oil, he talks about 1/8 teaspoon amount being a cause for concern, it would take me years of particles to add up to that amount, I will discuss when I go in for a annual.

as far as the oil level, as long as you had oil pressure and normal oil temperature I don't think it's a cause for concern 

[DVA]

The first advice is to consult a good A&P as that is always the proper way to get qualified information. That said, not all A&Ps have the experience to give correct advice. That’s why (I hope) you chose Mooneyspace.com for additional, informative information to use to make your own final decisions.

Others have suggested that you should be sending a oil sample for analysis. I would stress this is the only one of a triad of things you should do on every oil change, the other two are: cut open the filter (which you’re doing) and inspect the screen. I also change my filter with every oil change, it’s cheap enough and then I can see a full picture every 25-30 hours of the last 25-30 hours. Should there be a significant or steadily increasing quantity (above normal) of metal, then sending the filter element out for spectral analysis may help tell what part(s) are actually wearing abnormally. This can help save you a ton of money if the SEM picks up on something early.

IMHO, you have normal metal amounts, I would not be concerned. Here’s a link to Lycoming’s Service Instruction 1492D which will help guide you in your next steps. Note that Lycoming considers a full 1/2 teaspoon of material to be the point of engine removal, a few flecks here and there as you have is very normal and expected; in fact it’s light for most engines at 1500 hours.

Oil analysis measures trends over time, so you will not get much info from your first sample. I use Blackstone Labs myself, send out a sample every oil change - its also cheap insurance.

I also do not think running your oil at 4Qts back from KOSH was harmful at all. As teejayevans noted above as long as you have book oil pressure, AND your oil temperature was in the normal range, you had enough oil for the system to function properly. Oil at a level higher than needed for the system to work correctly is excess in nature (not bad, good to have extra, but not necessarily needed).

Have fun, fly safe!
DVA

[Bob_Belville]

3 minutes ago, DVA said:

The first advice is to consult a good A&P as that is always the proper way to get qualified information. That said, not all A&Ps have the experience to give correct advice. That’s why (I hope) you chose Mooneyspace.com for additional, informative information to use to make your own final decisions.

Others have suggested that you should be sending a oil sample for analysis. I would stress this is the only one of a triad of things you should do on every oil change, the other two are: cut open the filter (which you’re doing) and inspect the screen. I also change my filter with every oil change, it’s cheap enough and then I can see a full picture every 25-30 hours of the last 25-30 hours. Should there be a significant or steadily increasing quantity (above normal) of metal, then sending the filter element out for spectral analysis may help tell what part(s) are actually wearing abnormally. This can help save you a ton of money if the SEM picks up on something early.

IMHO, you have normal metal amounts, I would not be concerned. Here’s a link to Lycoming’s Service Instruction 1492D which will help guide you in your next steps. Note that Lycoming considers a full 1/2 teaspoon of material to be the point of engine removal, a few flecks here and there as you have is very normal and expected; in fact it’s light for most engines at 1500 hours.

Oil analysis measures trends over time, so you will not get much info from your first sample. I use Blackstone Labs myself, send out a sample every oil change - its also cheap insurance.

I also do not think running your oil at 4Qts back from KOSH was harmful at all. As teejayevans noted above as long as you have book oil pressure, AND your oil temperature was in the normal range, you had enough oil for the system to function properly. Oil at a level higher than needed for the system to work correctly is excess in nature (not bad, good to have extra, but not necessarily needed).

Have fun, fly safe!
DVA

+1 I change oil and filter at 30 hours +/- depending upon flights (E.g., I'm at 14.4 now and will add about 15 hours on a single trip to NH, ME, NJ in early September. Even if i fly a few hours this month i will not change until after the trip.) 

 I cut the filter and send sample to Blackstone at every change. At this point I have a half dozen reports and a good feel for trends. Isolated samples might not mean much. 

[aaronk25]

No prob at 4qts. Just remember on a long climb if hot the oil acts as a heat sink. The less oil the quicker it gets warm but on the flip side the quicker it cools.

Good advise above on oil and/or filter analysis.

If it's aluminum that's better than steel.

Also nothing to do with the 50 hour filter changes as the filter shouldn't be a issue even beyond that.

These motors just arnt very precise. The technology is 60 years old, and it's part of the game. Go have fun.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jetdriven]

Wash the filter media in a quart bucket full of mineral spirits then let it settle 24hr.  Pour off he clear liquid after, then place a large magnet under the bottom of the cup and pour off almost all the rest. Then pour that onto a 1ftsq piece of glass and let evaporate.  Scrape up and chop with a razor blade, and then take a look at the iron fines.  Cam and lifter spalling can show up as small platelets, hairs, or lots of iron fines.  But the filter traps them you just have to be looking properly. 

[Guest]

18 hours ago, DVA said:

The first advice is to consult a good A&P as that is always the proper way to get qualified information. That said, not all A&Ps have the experience to give correct advice. That’s why (I hope) you chose Mooneyspace.com for additional, informative information to use to make your own final decisions.

Others have suggested that you should be sending a oil sample for analysis. I would stress this is the only one of a triad of things you should do on every oil change, the other two are: cut open the filter (which you’re doing) and inspect the screen. I also change my filter with every oil change, it’s cheap enough and then I can see a full picture every 25-30 hours of the last 25-30 hours. Should there be a significant or steadily increasing quantity (above normal) of metal, then sending the filter element out for spectral analysis may help tell what part(s) are actually wearing abnormally. This can help save you a ton of money if the SEM picks up on something early.

IMHO, you have normal metal amounts, I would not be concerned. Here’s a link to Lycoming’s Service Instruction 1492D which will help guide you in your next steps. Note that Lycoming considers a full 1/2 teaspoon of material to be the point of engine removal, a few flecks here and there as you have is very normal and expected; in fact it’s light for most engines at 1500 hours.

Oil analysis measures trends over time, so you will not get much info from your first sample. I use Blackstone Labs myself, send out a sample every oil change - its also cheap insurance.

I also do not think running your oil at 4Qts back from KOSH was harmful at all. As teejayevans noted above as long as you have book oil pressure, AND your oil temperature was in the normal range, you had enough oil for the system to function properly. Oil at a level higher than needed for the system to work correctly is excess in nature (not bad, good to have extra, but not necessarily needed).

Have fun, fly safe!
DVA

The only problem with Lycoming's numbers is they don't seem to account for accumulated contents.  5 oil changes in a row with small amounts at each one is really a significant amount of metal.

Clarence

[DVA]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The only problem with Lycoming's numbers is they don't seem to account for accumulated contents.  5 oil changes in a row with small amounts at each one is really a significant amount of metal.

Clarence

Normal wear will create metal over time which is fully expected and will result in accumulation. What Lycoming is illustrating is the sudden increase in metal which most often is a part, coming apart, not normal wear. 

DVA

[DXB]

On 8/8/2016 at 10:18 AM, DVA said:

I would stress this is the only one of a triad of things you should do on every oil change, the other two are: cut open the filter (which you’re doing) and inspect the screen.

I'd love to know how many people here (PPs like me or even the A/Ps) pull the screen at every oil change - looks like a total bear to get to.  Don't get me wrong- I'd be willing to do it once someone teaches me how to properly torque and safety wire the thing. But wouldn't surprise me if many A/Ps even skip it quietly at annual.  

 

[MB65E]

I don't skip it at annual...

I recently pulled a T182T oil suction screen that had the original gray painted copper gasket. Lycoming original from 2006. Really?

It's super tight on the Mooney, but it's worth it to check the box during the annual. On some of the aerobatic sumps, I really hate doing. There is a plug in the sump that can become dislodged. On these I think you are doing more harm than good. I still do it on these. But...

-Matt

 

[bonal]

Oil every 25 no filter so screen is removed inspected and cleaned every time. It's really not that difficult to do and can be done while oil drains. Knock wood clean every time. I try to maintain at 6 quarts and usually have to add about every five hours I do a lot of short hops with high climbs and if I get to do a long trip I can go much longer before adding 

[Hank]

Huh. My experience is the opposite--when making mostly low, short hops at 2300, I use less oil than on longer, higher trips turning 2400 or 2500. But then again, I have the screw-on filter and change it all every 50 hours. The first quart takes the longest, sometimes 15 hours, then the succeeding additions are at shorter and shorter intervals. When I went to the beach last month, I added a half quart before departure in both directions, flight times were just under 3.5 outbound and about 4 coming home with a fuel stop (no fuel at destination).

[Guest]

19 hours ago, MB65E said:

I don't skip it at annual...

I recently pulled a T182T oil suction screen that had the original gray painted copper gasket. Lycoming original from 2006. Really?

It's super tight on the Mooney, but it's worth it to check the box during the annual. On some of the aerobatic sumps, I really hate doing. There is a plug in the sump that can become dislodged. On these I think you are doing more harm than good. I still do it on these. But...

-Matt

 

We are talking about a very diligent maintainer who repaints the gasket and safety wire every time!  I too have seen this guy's work.

I'm too busy to do the painting.

Clarence

[Andy95W]

14 hours ago, bonal said:

Oil every 25 no filter so screen is removed inspected and cleaned every time. It's really not that difficult to do and can be done while oil drains. Knock wood clean every time. I try to maintain at 6 quarts and usually have to add about every five hours I do a lot of short hops with high climbs and if I get to do a long trip I can go much longer before adding 

I think we may be talking about a different screen filter.  The suction screen is at the aft base of the oil sump, just above and aft of the carburetor.  It's the safety wired finger screen that makes you say, "how the hell's that thing supposed to come out!?!"  (and this explains why so many still have Lycoming Gray paint on the safety wire.). (I suppose Clarence spells it "Grey".  Probably a Metric thing.)

[pinerunner]

A few very small metal particles are not cause for major concern. It's not time to split the case or pull jugs. The mechanics doing my latest annual impressed this on me. They were even joking that Lycoming had told them if you can't read any part numbers on the chunks then don't worry. (I'm sure that was an exaggeration of course). I had gone through my filter and found no particles and told them that meant overhaul was a ways off. They were laughing at me and set me straight (which you all get to do as well I suppose). I guess I had implied that at the first sign of metal particles in my filter I would start a major investigation.

I think you should take careful note of it and then put it "on watch" as what minor wear particles look like in the filter. If something is really wrong it will get worse quickly and then you should get more nervous and take action to sort it out.     

[RobertE]

I thought I should close the loop on this.  After 10 hours it seems the filter is clean.  Nada.  I'l check again after 25.  Just one of life's little mysteries.  Thanks everyone.

[MooneyBob]

I change my oil 25 and filter 50 hours. 938 hrs on IO 360 A3B6.

I used somebody else's trick from the forum to wash my filter in the mineral spirit, let it sit over night and then apply strong rare earth magnet to the bottom to the plastic container.  The magnet stuck to the bottom so hard that I thought I have a whole cam shaft in it. I moved the magnet around and then pulled it on the side of the container. The picture shows what I got. I didn't find any visible metal ( now I can see al least one flake in the picture) but it all feels like a wet dust. It feels like a velvet to the touch. 

If I used only a coffe filter and then look for the metal I wouldn't find anything. My oil analysis has elevated iron too. It went from around low 30 to low 50 ppm last time before this oil change. 

What do you think?

[ArtVandelay]

Wow, that's a lot, why is it black if you washed it with mineral spirits? I'd expect it to be shiny?

[MooneyBob]

26 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Wow, that's a lot, why is it black if you washed it with mineral spirits? I'd expect it to be shiny?

I don't know. It doesn't even feel like a metal. It feels like magnetized dust. I think I will re washed it in the spirits again.