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Missing early logs


dave50b

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First time buyer and I have been looking at an airplane that is missing the first set of logs but has all of the rest.  '80-'94 are gone but the rest are in good order and all ADs complied with.  The current owner says the maintenance shop lost the first logbook and I checked the 337 forms and did not see anything that would indicate any damage history.  I am a believer that if 337 forms were not submitted then it probably wouldn't be in the logbooks anyway. 

 

The seller seems to be asking a fair price given the missing logbooks, but I just wanted some feedback on how significant older logbooks were and if there would be any hesitation putting money into upgrades on a plane with missing logs.   

 

Also, I will definitely get a pre-buy inspection should I proceed.  Thanks for any feedback.

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I would never even consider a plane with missing airframe logs. No exceptions, no excuses.

Engine and prop logs no big deal.

An airplane is not a car or a boat.

Whether or not 337 forms were submitted or would or wouldn't be in the logbooks is irrelevant.

That's not your problem as a buyer and don't make it your problem. That's the seller's problem.

A good place to start is join the AOPA if you haven't done so already, subscribe to their legal program and follow their advice.

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Typical damage repair from a gear up would most likely not require a 337 and would just be documented with log entries or a repair station work order.  If I planned to keep it a long time, I would be OK with it as long as it was priced well below average and I would instruct the MSC doing the prebuy to look for any undocumented repairs.   The next buyer will also expect a discount.

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Get a GOOD  inspection done by a A&P you know and trust. If he says it is ok then buy it.

You will be getting a good airplane at a reduced price.

 

History is in the past, if your A&P says its ok forget the past,

 

current condition is all that matters 

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-I own three planes and have all logs to each going back to their test flights.

-Logbooks represent in kind the integrity of the owner during his/her period of ownership of the plane.

-I can only make judgement the integrity of the seller.

-A lot of undocumented repairs, etc, have occured during the life of many 40+ year-old planes

-I don't trust logbooks to represent the integrity of the plane, rather only to document "legal or not."  

-Safe or not-safe is determined by a thorough inspection.

-Planes with missing logs, like planes with damage history, have their value discounted on the market, legitimate or not.

-I would only purchase anyplane after it passed a thorough inspection. 

-I wouldn't hesitate to buy a plane with missing older logs but I would expect a discount, or I'd pass.

-I would pass on recent (i.e. <10 year-old) missing logs unless the plan had a lot of documented airtime since the logs were lost, though I probably wouldn't want such a bird anyway.

 

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I bought a plane knowing it was missing the first log but had a pre-buy done. All of this done on my own with no guidance by something like AOPA or experienced owners on a site like this.

 

Needless to say, it was a cluster-gaggle.

 

First log was missing since it identified the plane had been considered destroyed in a storm and de-registered. The person who bought it as scrap "rebuilt" it and my purchase solved his problems. I flew it for several years, but when I went to sell it myself, I had since learned about pulling all of the history from the FAA and having escrow companies do similar types of things. Took a significant hickey when I sold it. Wrote it off to education and swore to never repeat the process.

 

Fast forward to buying my J model in 2013. Lots of research, all logs and I can even tell you the owners of it from day 1 to present. Some are even here on Mooneyspace and have shared their knowledge of it with me.

 

Would I buy a plane without all of the logs? Probably not, but if I even considered it, I would track down owners from day one and find out what I could about the plane in question. And if a shop lost the logbook, I would expect the owner of the plane when the log was lost to have something I could take back to the shop for them to verify the facts. That is assuming they were still in business. How many of us would go to a shop that lost logbooks?

 

Just my $0.02 worth.

 

John

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It may or may not be a big deal, and each airplane (and owner) is different.  You're buying the plane as well as the previous owner(s), and that presents a lot of unknowns.  My plane has missing logs as well due to a flood at the original owner's maintenance shop where they were stored (big mistake!).  However, the original owner (an attorney) kept meticulous records and what came with my plane has WAY more detail than any airframe logbook of the era ('77 through ~2002) before computer-generated stickers became popular.  My bank hesitated when they learned about the missing logbooks, but as soon as they saw the records they said "no problem."  I have binders with every maintenance receipt including itemized labor and part entries, AD compliance, letters of correspondence to various shops, Lycoming, etc.  He re-created the history of the plane in fine detail.  I still had an expert Mooney PPI to confirm the condition of the plane and closed the deal.  I'm only the 3rd owner, too.  

 

Just be careful with the process and make sure you know exactly what you're buying.  I'd want to know the ownership history for the missing period, and check the accident records thoroughly by serial number since the N-number can be easily changed.  There might be a way to search insurance claims but I don't know...you don't want to buy a franken-plane that was rebuilt from a bad accident.

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I bought the Mooney I presently own with the first aircraft log missing (1974-1983).  I bought the plane in 1998, so it had a lot of years of logged time.

 

The missing log book was, to a certain extent reconstructed using other documentation such as itemized shop receipts, etc. and I have had exactly zero issues with the missing logbook.

 

If there is an issue, it will be when I go to sell the plane since (obviouisly) many people think a plane missing a logbook is defective.

 

Logbooks are paper and they don't necessarily tell the whole story.  I once looked at a plane that had excellent logs, but when I called the previous owner, I found that pages had been carefully removed which dealt with a hard landing and questionable repairs.  Needless to say, the fact that all the logs seemed to be "there", a buyer must exercise caution regardless.

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I bought the Mooney I presently own with the first aircraft log missing (1974-1983).  I bought the plane in 1998, so it had a lot of years of logged time.

 

The missing log book was, to a certain extent reconstructed using other documentation such as itemized shop receipts, etc. and I have had exactly zero issues with the missing logbook.

 

If there is an issue, it will be when I go to sell the plane since (obviouisly) many people think a plane missing a logbook is defective.

 

Logbooks are paper and they don't necessarily tell the whole story.  I once looked at a plane that had excellent logs, but when I called the previous owner, I found that pages had been carefully removed which dealt with a hard landing and questionable repairs.  Needless to say, the fact that all the logs seemed to be "there", a buyer must exercise caution regardless.

 

+1.  My K is missing the first 18 years of logs, however it was a single owner and I have copies of all the itemized work orders back to the original purchase agreement in 1980.  The original owner also continued to fly the plane for 8 years after the new logs began.  

 

Just because the logs are missing doesn't mean that you can't have a firm understanding of the plane's history.

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