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How to know if full procedure must be flown?


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I just returned from a flight to Astoria, Oregon in typical coastal Oregon weather - low clouds and mist. I'm accustomed to being given vectors to final but in this case had to fly the full procedure as instructed by Seattle Center. Is it a fact that center controllers can't give vectors? Only approach controllers can?

My question is, how can one know in advance if a full procedure is to be flown? Is it as simple as seeing if an approach controller frequency is shown for a given airport? This practical advice is something I never learned. I'm just guessing on this one. It's not a big deal but, frankly, I'm always surprised if vectors aren't provided and would just as soon know in advance.

Thanks.

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I'm with the "gotta do it unless otherwise permitted or instructed" camp.  

 

For example, if you are with centre and there is no approach controller covering the airport on which you wish to put down (typically an uncontrolled airport), they will normally clear you "for an approach."  Then, after you have selected your approach, it is the full monty for that one, unless you declare visual acquisition of the runway environment before the start or during the actual approach manoeuvring.  At least this is my experience.

 

The other situation that comes to mind is when you have a loss-of-comms during the enroute portion of the flight or during the initial stages of the approach.  We are all taught that loss-of-comms should result in a safe landing, but following the procedure most anticipated or cleared by ATC. If we have a clearance, I have been taught to follow it, as much as to-the-letter as possible.  If we have no clearance, then it would be the most appropriate procedure for our intended route of flight and entry into an approach at the appropriate IAF.  Without any other clearance (because of loss-of-comms), I would plan for the full procedure.  

 

Recently, I was inbound to Kerrville from El Paso and they were 1900' overcast with tops around 5000'.  Centre cleared me for "an approach" and I did the full procedure for the LOC or NDB (forget which) to 30.  Came out at nearly 2000' AGL, declared the runway visual, cancelled IFR and entered the long left hand downwind for Rwy 12.  

 

A year or two ago, I made a mistake landing at Brantford, Ontario (prepared to do the full procedure for the NDB approach to Rwy 05). Wind favoured the other end, Rwy 23.   On descent (from the east & NDB is west of the airport), I caught a break and saw the airport.  Immediate right turn and descent to the left base for 23 - but I forgot to tell Toronto Centre what I was doing.  When I landed and called to close the flight plan, they told me that the last 15 minutes of holding the airspace over the NDB (plus whatever margin they allocate) could have been freed up if I had let them know.  My bad - lesson learned - tell Centre what you are doing when you change your approach plan in mid evolution.

 

BTW:  I really enjoy these types of approaches.... B)

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I just returned from a flight to Astoria, Oregon in typical coastal Oregon weather - low clouds and mist. I'm accustomed to being given vectors to final but in this case had to fly the full procedure as instructed by Seattle Center. Is it a fact that center controllers can't give vectors? Only approach controllers can?

My question is, how can one know in advance if a full procedure is to be flown? Is it as simple as seeing if an approach controller frequency is shown for a given airport? This practical advice is something I never learned. I'm just guessing on this one. It's not a big deal but, frankly, I'm always surprised if vectors aren't provided and would just as soon know in advance.

Thanks.

 

Center controllers are allowed to issue vectors to a final approach course but not to all approaches/airports....this is an airport specific question.....in doubt?  Call the controlling center prior to departure. Usually very helpful.

 

Thinking about "the full procedure" in advance?  Your 'approach com freq on the plate' observation is a good one, but also look at the approaches available.   DME ARC to an ILS (like RWY 26 KAST)?  Assuming a center controller, it's a pretty good bet you'll intercept that gem if it intersects your route. Not reasonably lined up with the final approach course (say 30 degrees L/R) on your route?  Expect a course reversal or some other transition.  If clearances are not obvious or you have questions ask ATC. While you should expect to do the entire approach procedure when cleared for an approach ATC might be surprised by a PT if you are pretty much lined up with a final approach course even if not on a published segment.  If it is a busy place they would likely want to know if you are planning a course reversal.

 

Remember the magic words......cleared "Straight in Approach".   If ATC doesn't say it and you want it, ask for it.  Clears up confusion.

 

Filing via a straight-in fix of an expected approach or transition, esp. at an unfamiliar airport,  might be a strategy for you (but doesn't always work.....).

 

Also remember approach radar may be OTS or part time so plan accordingly.

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I flew IFR to Alpine, TX on Saturday. During the flight I heard three or four pilots asking for vectors for an approach and the Center controller saying he couldn't do that and giving them the full procedure. I was just surprised to hear so many asking. They were all different airports as well. Of course almost all of Texas was IFR.

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I follow the principle that I brief and expect to fly the full procedure unless I hear or ask for the magical words "expect vectors" to be uttered.

What will get some pilots is not paying attention to the NoPT on the approach or the fine print that says "Procedure NA for arrivals at NAME on VXXX eastbound". On the latter they better hope to get vectors.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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I always understood it had to do with many factors, such as if the controller can keep you in radar contact until established inbound, and work load permitting.  We only have center controllers at my home base and routinely get vectors to the ILS 01.  I was flying home from Houghton, MI (north of my home base) a couple years ago, in the winter, at night, and had found some pretty serious icing going into Houghton (I do have TKS).  The controller clears me for the full approach 30 miles north of my airport, which meant I would need to fly a procedure turn and be in the icing for at least 10 minutes or more (we were on top and the tops were only 1500' above the ILS intercept altitude.  I asked the controller if I could get vectors and he replied "you're lined right up for the full approach".  I replied, "yep, I am, but I really don't want to spend that much extra time in the icing.  Are you telling me you CAN'T give me vectors?"  I think I was interrupting his lunch or some other non-work function, as he had NO ONE else on the radio at the time.  I got vectors and was only in the ugly weather for about 3 minutes.

 

 I still remember my IFR instructor telling me when a controller gives you something that can kill you (or doesn't give something that will avoid your demise), he still goes home for supper after the party is over.  It's your but, do what you have to do to stay safe, deal with them on the ground (and alive).

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Filing via a straight-in fix of an expected approach or transition, esp. at an unfamiliar airport,  might be a strategy for you (but doesn't always work.....).

 +1

 

I usually try to do this but as often as not the ATC computer changes my route away from the transition fix.

 

Bob

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I still remember my IFR instructor telling me when a controller gives you something that can kill you (or doesn't give something that will avoid your demise), he still goes home for supper after the party is over.  It's your but, do what you have to do to stay safe, deal with them on the ground (and alive).

 

What do a pilot and a controller have in common?  If the pilot screws up, the pilot dies.  If the controller screws up, the pilot dies.

 

Bob

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If you are not on vectors and not otherwise instructed, you are to fly the full procedure. But it never hurts to ask.

 

And always fly the procedure turn when arriving from the direct side unless instructed that you are cleared for the straight-in.

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I follow the principle that I brief and expect to fly the full procedure unless I hear or ask for the magical words "expect vectors" to be uttered.

What will get some pilots is not paying attention to the NoPT on the approach or the fine print that says "Procedure NA for arrivals at NAME on VXXX eastbound". On the latter they better hope to get vectors.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Typically, though, there is an approach that is authorized from whatever "X" direction that is, though. But you're right- not paying attention to your approach plate makes you look a bit like an amateur...

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Assuming 

 

I just returned from a flight to Astoria, Oregon in typical coastal Oregon weather - low clouds and mist. I'm accustomed to being given vectors to final but in this case had to fly the full procedure as instructed by Seattle Center. Is it a fact that center controllers can't give vectors? Only approach controllers can?

My question is, how can one know in advance if a full procedure is to be flown? Is it as simple as seeing if an approach controller frequency is shown for a given airport? This practical advice is something I never learned. I'm just guessing on this one. It's not a big deal but, frankly, I'm always surprised if vectors aren't provided and would just as soon know in advance.

Thanks.

Sounds like a practical question rather than a regulatory one. I recall a dual cross country with an instrument student when he asked for vectors and got a laugh in return.

 

Although the fact that it is Center rather than TRACON is a small clue, the real reason is the availability or lack of availability of radar approach control services. The best indicator of whether you will be vectored or receive the full approach is in the AFD entry for the airport. Look at the AFD entry for KAST and compare it with the one for Boeing Field. See the ® next to the one for App/Dep in the Boeing listing that is missing from the Astoria one? The ® indicates the availability of radar for the approach.

 

There are exceptions to everything but if there are radar services, you can generally anticipate being vectored*; if there are no radar services, you will get the full approach.

 

(*an example exception: radar services are generally available but terrain precludes it at the FAF intercept altitude)

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RobertE, all good information here. Directly to your question....... 

 

I was taught that you do the full procedure unless 

1. ATC provides vectors. They will expect you to continue inbound. If you need to do the procedure turn for altitude or speed or ??? you must advise them.

2. The IAP specifically excludes it "procedure turn N/A" or similar

3. You specifically request or state you want to continue inbound "straight in" or some similar wording and the controller approves. 

 

In a low density area it probably would not be a big deal, but in a high traffic area where the controller has several planes going to the same airport  you can really screw up his (and your) day by not being clear with ATC expectation and/or your intention.

 

For planning, if I am unfamiliar with the approach/controller, I plan for the full procedure and load it to the GPS. Most of the time the controller will ask which entry point I want. 

You can plan the full approach and then ask for vectors (radar available) 

If you activate the full approach and then get vectored, delete the IPs outside your vector point. This leaves the approach active and allows you to pick up the guidance anywhere along the procedure. 

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I just returned from a flight to Astoria, Oregon in typical coastal Oregon weather - low clouds and mist. I'm accustomed to being given vectors to final but in this case had to fly the full procedure as instructed by Seattle Center. Is it a fact that center controllers can't give vectors? Only approach controllers can?

My question is, how can one know in advance if a full procedure is to be flown? Is it as simple as seeing if an approach controller frequency is shown for a given airport? This practical advice is something I never learned. I'm just guessing on this one. It's not a big deal but, frankly, I'm always surprised if vectors aren't provided and would just as soon know in advance.

Thanks.

Vectors is the most common way to be cleared for an approach. However if in your case you were instructed to fly the full approach it can be for a number of reasons:

No radar coverage for whatever reason or they were just too busy or they didn't have the final approach course on their screen. This is sometimes is true for smaller fields so probably not in your case here.

Flying the full approach is good practice especially when it comes to course reversals and in case of comm failure.

If a course reversal is published on the plate it must be flown unless being vectored or are on a feeder route and it specifically states NoPT!

As far as knowing ahead what to expect I think if you're in radar contact you can generally expect vectors to final. As always good clear communication is helpful.

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copied from ask the instructor. Some of the figures didn't show up but the link is attached.

http://www.askacfi.com/1667/procedure-turn-not-required.htm

A good pilot is always learning right? Well, I have learned something recently about TAA approaches, procedure turns and how they are charted, especially on the Jeppesen charts. To begin, let’s take a look at this traditional RNAV / GPS approach:

This is a standard “Basic T” approach that uses a Terminal Arrival Area (TAA) to assist with the transition from the enroute structure to the terminal environment. You can see how this approach has the 3 standard IAFs (initial approach fix)i to guide you to the intermediate leg, which is the approach leg located between the intermediate fix (IF) and the final approach fix (FAF). In this case, DEHYY serves as both a IAF and the IF. If you given DEHYY as your IAF, you will either have to fly the procedure turn (PT) or NOT fly the procedure turn based on your arrival area. Since the procedure turn is drawn with a black bold line, we know that it is a charted published portion of the approach, again only if the requirements for flying the procedure turn are met. You’ll notice that if EBEKY or GIMMU were your IAFs, then you are not to fly the procedure turn as it very clearly states in the plan view “NoPT”. You’ll also notice that in the “straight-in” area that there are two segments or step downs that are defined by the distance to the IAF, in this case DEHYY. There is a 30 NM, 3100′ segment and a 8 NM, 3000′ segment to DEHYY in the straight-in area. I have highlighted this straight-in area in yellow on the approach plate above.

I was on a very (very) short reposition flight to airport that was located about 10 miles away from my departure airport. After takeoff I climbed up to 3,000 feet (my initial and final altitude) and almost immediately after my initial contact with departure control I heard the words “Cleared direct to DEHYY, maintain 3,000 until established, cleared for the GPS RNAV Runway 28 approach.” Ok, no big deal, I’m doing the full approach on my own. I loaded the approach in the FMS and proceeded direct to the initial approach fix (IAF) of DEHYY. Like I said, this was a short flight and I was pretty busy with the after takeoff, descent and approach checklists. Never mind that I had to double check my Vref speed, set the VNAV minimums in the autopoilot and obtain the latest weather on ASOS! I had just enough time to glance down at my Jeppesen approach plate and read the notes associated with using DEHYY as the initial fix. I saw the “1” and “2” and quickly determined that because I was at 3,000 feet and within 8 miles of DEHYY, the procedure turn IS required because I don’t see the words “NoPT” like I did see for the 30 miles and 3100′ transition or the north (GIMMU) and south (EBEKY) transitions. I WAS WRONG!

I started the procedure turn outbound and heard approach ask, “Are you headed eastbound?” “Yes,” was my response. All I heard as a response initially was quiet….that’s not good. “Ok, call us inbound” “Roger”, I replied. “Oh, and if you wouldn’t mind please calling me when you get on the ground too” Oh boy, that’s definitely not good.

Make a long story short, after calling approach and contacting the Jeppesen charting office, I learned something very important about how transitions and procedure turns are charted. When there is a common transition to a fix, the “NoPT” is only added to the first leg of the transition. (please read that twice). For instance, if you look at the above approach plate, you can see that the words “NoPT” are placed next to the 3,100′ and 30 NM transition but not to the 8 NM and 3,000′ portion. Although it is not explicitly stated, the procedure turn is NOT authorized for that leg of the transition as well! Did you know that? I sure didn’t.

Now that some time has passed and I’ve thought about it, it makes a lot of sense that I didn’t have to do the procedure turn. However, at the time, all I knew was that I didn’t see the words “NoPT” beside my transition, so I thought that the procedure turn was required.

I took a look at the NACO chart for the same airport, and to be honest, the NACO chart makes it a little clearer that a procedure turn within that 8 mile, 3,000′ transition is not required but it leaves some room for question. Here is the same approach:

On the NACO chart you can see that “NoPT” is added for that entire straight-in transition area (187 ° through 007°) and by the way that it is drawn it does a little better job of implying that that procedure turn is not to be flown while in either steps of this transition (3,100′ and 3,000′).

Do you know when else you are not required to do the Procedure Turn?

1) When the symbol “No PT” is depicted on the initial segment being used

2) When receiving radar vectors to the final approach course

3) When conducting a timed approach from a holding fix

4)When ATC specifies in the approach clearance “Cleared Straight-In (type) approach”

5) When a teardrop procedure turn is depicted and a course reversal is required, this type turn my be executed.

6) When a holding pattern replaces a procedure turn, then the holding pattern must be followed (unless you meet one of the above rules)

7) When the procedure turn barb is absent from the plan view

These limitations all come from FAR 91.175 and AIM Chapter 5-4-9.

Here is the summary (which is also explicity stated in the AIM): Anytime you have any question about whether a procedure turn is to be flown you should “immediately request clarification from ATC”. I could have saved myself a lot of grief (and some time & fuel) by just taking a second (despite my workload) to say “Just want to clarify, are you expecting me to fly the procedure turn?” You should never be so busy as to not have time to request a clarification from ATC.

Well, I hope you learned something from my mistake and that it keeps you from doing something similar. I’ll be honest, I don’t like confessing when I’ve messed up (even though I do it all the time) but I really hope that at least one other person comes away from this having learned something about procedure turns and how they are charted.

Fly Safe!

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If the situation is not clear, I always tell ATC or approach that I am will be doing the procedure turn. I have read that in some busy airspace approach may expect to procedure turn even when one appears to be called for, so give them a chance to give you the explicit instruction.

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