MichaelMollenhauer Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 I'm looking into purchasing an aircraft for longer range business travel and I've done a fair amount of research on different makes and models. My research keeps pointing me towards a Mooney M20M Bravo. My time is mostly in Cessna and Piper retracts. My issue is that I have never flown or been around a Bravo and would like to get a better look before I invest the time and effort into pursuing a purchase on one. I fly out of KFNL. Are there any Brovo owners out there in the Northern Colorado or front range area I could talk with or perhaps take a look at your plane? I'd love to get your first hand thoughts on owning one. Or, if you have suggestions for better ways to get myself up to speed on the Bravo, please chime in. Thanks, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbp Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 I think you'll find the Bravo owners here will be happy to answer any questions you might have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFromCB Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Best engine/airframe combination ever built ;-) As much as I like the Acclaim, TIO540AF1B, due to oil cooled heads, is truly a high altitude engine. I might sell you mine. Feel free to message me and I'll send you my phone number and we can chat and I'll answer all and any questions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 don't do it Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFromCB Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 don't do it Andy Do what? Sell it. I'm still on the fence. I love the plane but it almost never gets used for anything other than instrument practice once a month, burger runs and general screwing around and hops to Denver/Chicago. One of the reasons why I don't want to sell it is after 4 years of ownership, it is squak free. Fixed damn almost everything. I'll never get my money back ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuzzProc Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Mike, I live in South East AZ, same basic alt you live at, I'm too far away for you to look, but I travel often in my Bravo to the Black Hills. As such I pass thorough your area in all seasons. The Bravo is the traveling machine you need. It laughs at the Rockies, it will climb out at 1000 fpm and has Baggage room. I use to have a 231 which is a great plane but the Bravo is in a whole new class. Again for your DAs and mountains, I would not go with anyother plane buzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelMollenhauer Posted March 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Thanks AndyFromCB and BuzzProc. I recently was approved by my company to travel between my remote office here in Fort Collins and the main office in Southwest VA. That will result in a lot of long solo IFR trips. I think I've researched all I can research on spec sheets and flying magazine articles. I need to see it and be comfortable with it. I was a midwest kid growing up and everything was Cessna. I've spent a lot of time in a Cardinal RG which is a simple comfortable airplane but the performance isn't there for regular long trips. The performance of the Bravo seems hard to believe but exactly what i'm looking for. Most that I see for sale also seem well outfitted for cross country travel without a lot of mods. All that being said, I also have a wife and 2 kids that I'd like to take along on the fun trips. A few examples I've seen for sale will work given their useful load and my family's 2-3 hr stamina. What about cabin size? All the reports I read online are that the cabin feel is tight. That doesn't bother me solo but I think i have to have a look to get a feel for whether it'll work for 4 lighter individuals with light bags. 90% of my travel will be business so that will have priority. I don't have any qualms about quality or performance numbers - they all sound great. My problem is that I don't know anybody that has a Bravo and haven't been able to connect with one locally. Buzz, if you're passing through, I'll buy lunch, pay for fuel, etc to get a good look and your thoughts on the ownership experience. Thanks again for all your input. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnB Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Hey Mike! Great airplane that youve chosen to look at. A Bravo may be more pricey than the others, but for speed, performance, climb characteristics and ability to fly easily in an airspace (12-24k feet) that you will find that pretty much only you can routinely fly in if you choose, is fully worth it. High Altitude takeoffs no worries. Fuel burn more than the others, so if economy is your major concern, you might want to consider something else like a J or an Ovation. But if versatility and speed is what you want, Bravo is a great choice. Either way.. good thing youre purchasing a Mooney, cant go wrong with any model you choose! John B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnB Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Thanks AndyFromCB and BuzzProc. I recently was approved by my company to travel between my remote office here in Fort Collins and the main office in Southwest VA. That will result in a lot of long solo IFR trips. I think I've researched all I can research on spec sheets and flying magazine articles. I need to see it and be comfortable with it. I was a midwest kid growing up and everything was Cessna. I've spent a lot of time in a Cardinal RG which is a simple comfortable airplane but the performance isn't there for regular long trips. The performance of the Bravo seems hard to believe but exactly what i'm looking for. Most that I see for sale also seem well outfitted for cross country travel without a lot of mods. All that being said, I also have a wife and 2 kids that I'd like to take along on the fun trips. A few examples I've seen for sale will work given their useful load and my family's 2-3 hr stamina. What about cabin size? All the reports I read online are that the cabin feel is tight. That doesn't bother me solo but I think i have to have a look to get a feel for whether it'll work for 4 lighter individuals with light bags. 90% of my travel will be business so that will have priority. I don't have any qualms about quality or performance numbers - they all sound great. My problem is that I don't know anybody that has a Bravo and haven't been able to connect with one locally. Buzz, if you're passing through, I'll buy lunch, pay for fuel, etc to get a good look and your thoughts on the ownership experience. Thanks again for all your input. Mike Space is fine, you should probably only fly with people you like, as if you dont like them, you might want to have more arm room to be apart from them . Ive gone with three 170 lb passengers full fuel, no worries, 4 would not be possible under the weight envelope with full fuel, but if you dont fill your tanks completely, you can. I don't have TKS as I choose not to fly if theres the possibility of icing, but if you add it, (or something like A/C which I dont need) that will reduce your load to a 2 large person airplane with baggage, and maybe 1-2 small kids or dogs. If you need to have TKS and extended fuel tanks, well, you wont be able to carry 4 people at all with full tanks and would be borderline at 3. If youre only doing 2-3 hour trips (which is what I do) no matter what configuration you purchase, without full fuel you could accomplish your goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbp Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 my Bravo is for sale, but not because I don't love flying it http://mooneyspace.com/topic/14400-1998-mooney-m20m-for-sale/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Mike, When you hear that Mooneys are tight... They come in three sizes. Short, mid and long bodies... The Bravo is as big and comfy as they get. For business related travel: a turbo powered Mooney with FIKI is as good as it gets... Use your judgement, it won't make you super human. You still are the PIC. For some additional insight, try this.... http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Flight_Instruction.html Don is a Bravo owner, CFII and recently updated his instrument panel... There is a treasure trove of how somebody can use a Bravo in his collection of photos and videos. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxMike Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Mike, I have a Bravo that I have owned 10 years or so. I try to fly every Wednesday with a group for lunch. If you could get to FTG I would be glad to take you along. Festivities start around 10AM and the airplanes get back into the hangar around 2PM. Flying is always weather dependent and I have annual inspection coming up in the next few weeks. Let me know of your interest. Walt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelMollenhauer Posted March 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Walt, That sounds like a great offer. I'd love to join. So I'll be on the East coast through this coming weekend but I can get down there the following weekend maybe on the 4th if that doesn't conflict with your annual. Please send me an email offline with details. mmollen@vt.edu . Thanks Again. MIke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Armour Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 Mike, how old are your kids ? Four smaller folks = no problem IMO. Even two guys up front and I never feel cramped. I don't know the numbers right off but the width is comparable to most everything else. It's the tighter headroom where the cabin is rounded that may give the "perception" of being tighter. But it makes Mooney's aero>fast. Even with all four seats in you will have plenty of luggage room. I typically fly with two or three seats. When two seats , there is a ton of room. 182's and Cirrus's just wish they could get the amount of stuff in theirs that I can :-) What airports will you be using for business....let a few of us look at the numbers. I moved from a 201 eight years ago and still continue to be impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelMollenhauer Posted March 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2015 My daughter is 17 and son is 14, the whole family is reasonably trim - the 4 of us are 540 lbs or so. . After hearing lots of feedback i'm less worried about gross weight.. I think we can make that work. That perception of tightness thing is a tough one. My wife can get a little nervous in tight spaces but i think less so if its windows or not feeling totally closed in anyway. Not sure how to judge that one. We'll just have to try it I think and thats why I want a look. We've checked out a T210 and A36TC. Those work for her but personally i like the Bravo for a variety of performance reasons but as I mentioned, i haven't flown one. Having flown the T210 and A36, i think they feel much more stable (but in different ways) than what i'm used to in a Cardinal RG and other smaller aircraft I've flown. I assume the Bravo is similar? My airports will be FNL (home base), HEF, BCB, CHO, ROA, RIC, GSO, CAE, occasionally DET, MYR (fun), CID (family). Mostly its a long run out to BCB or ROA, then day trips to the other East Coast stops. My schedule is pretty flexible so i think i can just wait for my good flying days in the challenging months due to icing (he says naively). I can always jump back on commercial if necessary in the bad months if it looks like a long stretch of weather but I'm ready to have some fun and adventure with my travel and am ready to move to new levels as a pilot I have very accommodating family about half way between FNL and BCB in CID. I figure i can use that as a stopover if facing terrible weather and need a nest. Also have family in Kansas City that would do same. The economics are a concern to me of course but almost all of my travel is reimbursed and is legit business. i'm still concerned about repeated bigger hits on the maintenance side. Do you all have super deep pockets or is that a common fear? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 24, 2015 Report Share Posted March 24, 2015 Your fears are getting to you... The Bravo is not like the planes you listed... My family (similar to yours, number/age/weight) doesn't like bumps. They are typically asleep by the time the gear is stowed or they are IPad watching. The Bravo is a big plane compared to a C. Some people use the C as the example of how small a Mooney is... The Bravo is a heavy plane and handles bumps pretty well. The Bravo climbs to get above the bumps pretty easily. If your family doesn't like being in a bravo, they aren't going to like being in a Citation jet either... Do they fly in IMC? The 'I don't fly in small planes' reasoning is a big challenge. You would need a 737 and a pro pilot to get over that... Take the family to see a Bravo in a place that has other Mooneys for sale. Turn on the instrument panel computers with magenta lines and the 'you are here dots'. Give them the choice, ask them which one they want the C in original condition or a Bravo with modern touch screens. Let them sit in both... The Ovation sells itself. Sitting in the back seat meets the expectations of anyone that has been back there. There are few single engine, piston driven, factory built planes that are faster than a bravo... Maintenance is not usually as bad as other birds. It is a complex plane with many systems. Turbocharged Beach planes are not known for low cost maintenance either... Spend a lot on PPIs and training...save a bundle. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Armour Posted March 24, 2015 Report Share Posted March 24, 2015 I feel certain that your wife will have plenty of room, at least as comfortable as any other airplane. Your daughter most likely won't be flying many trips with you much longer :-) FNL to ROA is a haul. Without a fuel stop I don't see that happening without long range tanks and even then it may only be east bound non stop. On my planner, no wind I'm showing 121 gallons. I run ROP and no more than 1615 TiT, that's on the rich side. I would like to see an Ovation owner plan that trip. It's very possible that an Ovation may do a better job on that mission....meaning no stops. I imagine my maintenance costs are about as good or better than an other high performance single. A good local Mechanic is the secret IMO. I did most of mine and checked by, or at least signed off by my IA. Even paying labor, it's no huge savings. Replacing a turbo, mags, vacuum pump etc doesnt take lots of time. My annuals are usually just that, a basic inspection, a tire here or there. I did have a Mooney shop do the donuts last year, those and odds and ends they found, things they didn't like came to over 3amu's. Both me and my IA were a little shocked. Needless to say we will do those from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Armour Posted March 24, 2015 Report Share Posted March 24, 2015 Carusoam, flight plan that for him. Nonstop ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 24, 2015 Report Share Posted March 24, 2015 1,200 nm... Look for the bird with 130 gallons extended range tanks. I prefer to stop at a halfway spot with family aboard. The girls like their privacy, no gator aid bottles. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awful_Charlie Posted March 24, 2015 Report Share Posted March 24, 2015 With 100+ gallons of gas, you're not going to get 500lbs+ of pax in there, let alone any baggage, to say nothing of having four of you in a relatively confined space for over 5 hours. I trade speed for fuel burn, and get 170-180 KTAS at 13-14GPH in the high teens, if you go up higher you will be looking at masks rather than cannulas so your oxygen usage is going to rise to the point you might need to fill up that before you return - not necessarily a big thing, but potentially a PITA. It irks me to say it, but a TN Bo with tip tanks might be the thing to look at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelMollenhauer Posted March 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 Yeah, I never considered non-stop, at least not Westbound. Maybe East with good weather and a big push. Always thought 2 legs dodging weather as necessary. Remember that the long east west trips aren't with family. This is my mission challenge. Most travel will be solo east west for biz. My issue is that i want a plane that can do my primary mission and enough of the family/fun mission to make it work. I think the Bravo is as close as it gets. I love all the feedback from this pilot community - thanks to all who have chimed in. I think you've solidified (through your real world experience and comments) what I'd already figured out. I still have people saying i'll want a TN Bo. Haven't seen one for less than half TBO in similar price range 'cept a few suspect examples. Anyway, thanks again for all your input. Think I'm in the market for a Bravo. Now to find the right bird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 ROA is an interesting airport, nestled in a bowl with higher terrain all around. There is a good crosswind runway. I stopped there once due to bad weather headed from the VA coast to far western WV, then waited eight days for the wind to die down to go get her. It was still gusting in the teens when I made my first A36 landing with a nice left crosswind. The flight home into the wind was much longer . . . Congrats, though, on getting corporate approval,to travel in your plane! My last company was sold from one multinational to another,and they had a specific "no general aviation" exclusion in the travel policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bravoman Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 With 100+ gallons of gas, you're not going to get 500lbs+ of pax in there, let alone any baggage, to say nothing of having four of you in a relatively confined space for over 5 hours. I trade speed for fuel burn, and get 170-180 KTAS at 13-14GPH in the high teens, if you go up higher you will be looking at masks rather than cannulas so your oxygen usage is going to rise to the point you might need to fill up that before you return - not necessarily a big thing, but potentially a PITA. It irks me to say it, but a TN Bo with tip tanks might be the thing to look at Or a toga TC but those don't have the load carrying capability of the earlier models. The rear entry door and nose compartment is great on the pa 32s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFromCB Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 There is always turbo 210 with Flint Tanks. If you really need the range and ability to carry 4 with full tanks, it's about as good as it gets. 1600lb useful - 720lb of fuel still leaves about 880lb in the cabin. That's good for 1000nm with an hour and half reserve at 17gph and 175knots. Just pray that wing doesn't fall off, well, actually, the fuselage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgbpost Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Mike, If you get back into town by Monday morning I have a 91' Bravo that is based at FNL (just recently moved from LMO) you could sit in. Ironically I'm taking it down to David and Jimmy at All American Aircraft Monday as I have purchased a 58P Baron. Sorry I didn't get to you sooner but I don't spend as much time on social sites these days and just stumbled on your post. I think the Bravo is a great bird especially for the western U.S. It pains me to sell mine but I'm willing to pay at the pump for the mission capability and performance. I don't like oxygen masks, or cannulas for that matter, and if you want to take advantage of the real capabilities of a Bravo that's a fact of life for you and your pax. Below 12,500' its faster than the plastic airplanes but the fuel specifics aren't great. I'll p.m. you my number If you want to visit. Best, Brian Postle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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