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Please Edumacate me


Rik

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Looking for an insight into the Mooney planes and what it typically cost to upgrade the planes.

 

 

What are the normal Cost for the maintenance areas on the Mooney's?

 

Engine OH, "J" Model for example and for the fun of it a "K" model

 

Fuel Tank reseal. How much does this cost?

 

Windshield replacement? 

 

Landing Gear rebuild

 

Interior redo

 

Paint redo

 

Are there any speed Mods that are better than others?

 

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Looking for an insight into the Mooney planes and what it typically cost to upgrade the planes.

 

 

What are the normal Cost for the maintenance areas on the Mooney's?

 

Engine OH, "J" Model for example and for the fun of it a "K" model

M20E, F, and J are going to be similar costs. 16k for a Jewell OH all the way up to 28K for a factory overhaul. Add another 5K for all the extra stuff (engine mount, rubber mounts, hoses, accessories, etc) plus 5K for the prop. I did the work myself but I'd guess it's 40 hours of labor, so another 3500-5000$ for that.  

Fuel Tank reseal. How much does this cost?

 

Windshield replacement? 

300-750$ for the glass and 8-20 hours of labor. I went the hard way with 1/4" glass and it took a lot of fitting. But a simple 3/16 windshield swap I could see 8 hours.

 

Landing Gear rebuild

 A complete remove everything and replace all worn parts? Check back with me in the fall, that's next after paint. Donuts are 1200$, worn rod ends 150$ each plus bushings it can get expensive. We're budgeting 4 days to get it all out, stripped and painted.

Interior redo

 

Paint redo

9k for. Hawk paint job up to 25-30K for a Tejas job. Mena is on the low end but they wil ruin your airplane. They sanded the entire plane at one shop, the other uses NAPA thinner in Alumigrip and doesn't even have a real paint booth.

 

Are there any speed Mods that are better than others?

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SWTA says its 14 hours to install a one piece windshield and the parts cost around 600.  So at 80/hr it could be 1200.  My A&P charges 55/hr and I am probably going to pull the windshield myself, send it to Lake Aero and have them send back a trimmed to fit one piece.  Then I'll have my A&P help me install it.  This could reduce my cost to 5 hours of his time if I am lucky.

 

I am getting my tanks resealed next week for a super low price by a local repair shop but most of the places charge 3250 per wing but provide a 10 year transferable warranty.

 

Jewell, Heart of the West, and J&B Aircraft Engines are around 16k for a O360 overhaul.  Those are the lowest cost shops I have found.

 

If your Mooney has the old gear biscuits like mine does on the mains (new on the front) the biscuits and upgrade kit are 2000.  I think its under 10 hours labor to install but am not sure.

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About 3 years ago I purchased new glass and had shipped to Artcraft in Santa Maria. They changed all the glass, stripped my plane and re-painted as I requested. This came to about 15k. The plane looked like a new one. I had some tank leak repair at Loyds Aviation in Bakersfield, Ca (KBFL) and it wasn't too costly. Haven't had the entire reseal done yet but will have to do it some day. Mitch Lucus says he recommends a shop in Troutville, Oregon.

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Find you cheapest quote to get each job done, and then multiply by three to get the job done correctly.

John Breda

Three x is not enough. You really need to pay for the shop managers kids to go to college and buy his wife a new suv if you want your tanks resealed properly. Anything less and you are negligent.
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I'm trying to get a grip on what's involved with the planes.

 

I honestly cannot afford an Ovation so that regulates me to the older planes such as a J or wishfully a 252/262 but in order to make one of those attractive on the front end they are going to be in need of:

 

 

Paint, most are old, faded and downright bugly. An Earl Shive paint job is not an option as one pointed out sanding the plane anodizing will ruin it. So gotta see what an honest budget here is.

 

Interior, some of the planes look like they were taken from the "70's Show" and could use a real update

 

Tank seal. I've read enough to know its not a matter of "IF" just a matter of "WHEN" 

 

Engine, the reason that this one amazes me the most is that A. they are severely over priced B. everyone preaches about the operating cost based upon banking X $/hr towards a rebuild yet everyone is selling the plane prior to the rebuild rather than actually doing the rebuild yet they are still complaining about the hourly cost. Time someone was honest with themselves and just admitted that they are going to run the plane till 80% TBO and off it. Base their cost on the real world situation/plan and go from there. C. Rebuilding the engine requires much more than just rebuilding the engine, hoses, alternator, magnetos, cooling ducts, etc. A 16K quote runs in to 40K and that 40K isn't increasing the planes value by 20K so it's a real bad investment.

 

Windshields, these take a beating in the sun and such over the years. Thankfully a few have said they cost X but installation is X to the 10th power more than the cost of the windshield themselves. Seems they were not really designed to be removed/replaced.

 

Corrosion. The unseen problem

 

Landing gear, numerous people have commented on these threads about the fragility of the landing gear so have to address the fact that purchasing a plane will come with some landing gear problems as well. I read mentions of electric gear, is there a hydraulic gear also?

 

The reason I didn't put electronics into the equation is simple, I'm to naive to know what is what on a panel and I don't know what is good to have or bad to have. Some say Forflight and an Ipad replaced the panel's most vital gauges anyways??? 

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 I find that annuals run between $600 (me doing all the work) to well over $10,000. I've had several over $10,000. No one specific issue, just a few issues that add up. Recently I had an unexpected engine issue that cost me over $40K. Note that the cost of an 'overhaul' assumes the best case scenario in which all the serviceable parts are serviceable. Lycoming charges $25K just for core value of a run out engine so that is an important data point.

 

You're not buying a new car, the price of these airplanes are so reasonable specifically because you can expect to spend some money on maintenance. 

 

I would discourage you from buying a plane and immediately putting upgrades into it. Wait a year and see what maintenance you spend. We have a Bo on the field here that is returning to the earth. The owner bought it and immediately put a 530 in it. Than it needed work and he ran out of money. Now its pretty much junk, rusted, paint chipping off, interior degraded, etc.

 

-Robert

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I'm trying to get a grip on what's involved with the planes.

--This is an excellent question and you are right to be asking. Just understand it can't be answered without a lot of time and research on your part.

 

 

I honestly cannot afford an Ovation so that regulates me to the older planes such as a J or wishfully a 252/262 but in order to make one of those attractive on the front end they are going to be in need of:

--In my humble opinion, if you cannot afford an Ovation, you cannot afford to upgrade a J to look like an Ovation. Upgrading is ALWAYS more expensive than buying it already built the way you want.

 

Paint, most are old, faded and downright bugly. An Earl Shive paint job is not an option as one pointed out sanding the plane anodizing will ruin it. So gotta see what an honest budget here is.

 

Interior, some of the planes look like they were taken from the "70's Show" and could use a real update

 

Tank seal. I've read enough to know its not a matter of "IF" just a matter of "WHEN" 

 

Engine, the reason that this one amazes me the most is that A. they are severely over priced B. everyone preaches about the operating cost based upon banking X $/hr towards a rebuild yet everyone is selling the plane prior to the rebuild rather than actually doing the rebuild yet they are still complaining about the hourly cost. Time someone was honest with themselves and just admitted that they are going to run the plane till 80% TBO and off it. Base their cost on the real world situation/plan and go from there. C. Rebuilding the engine requires much more than just rebuilding the engine, hoses, alternator, magnetos, cooling ducts, etc. A 16K quote runs in to 40K and that 40K isn't increasing the planes value by 20K so it's a real bad investment.

 

Windshields, these take a beating in the sun and such over the years. Thankfully a few have said they cost X but installation is X to the 10th power more than the cost of the windshield themselves. Seems they were not really designed to be removed/replaced.

 

Corrosion. The unseen problem

-- Corrosion is prohibitively expensive to fix.  If a plane is corroded, cross it off the list and move on.

 

Landing gear, numerous people have commented on these threads about the fragility of the landing gear so have to address the fact that purchasing a plane will come with some landing gear problems as well. I read mentions of electric gear, is there a hydraulic gear also?

-- Gear is either electric or manual on the older short body Mooney's.

 

The reason I didn't put electronics into the equation is simple, I'm to naive to know what is what on a panel and I don't know what is good to have or bad to have. Some say Forflight and an Ipad replaced the panel's most vital gauges anyways??? 

 

Regardless of what the costs are for all of the above items, they will be much more expensive than buying a plane that has them all already done. It is possible to find the plane you want, it just takes time to find it.  My C is a good example. It didn't need anything but an engine monitor when I bought it. I paid under $50K for it.  It already had a new interior, new paint, all the speed mods, new windshield, new gear pucks, low time and regularly used engine, no corrosion, excellent avionics including Century HSI, 530W, STec 30 w/alt hold, 2nd electric AI, etc...  

 

​It's not a turbo, and only a 180hp engine, but I've had it to 14K ft in cruise, it burns 7 - 8 gph, and has 1005 lbs useful load.

 

The only time it ever makes sense to upgrade an airplane is after you've owned it for 10 years and are sure you'll own it for another 10. You need to find the guy who is 2 years into the second 10 and has changed is mind and is ready to sell.

 

To do everything you want to do to a rundown J or K model will cost more than that Ovation.

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I forgot annuals.

 

The only thing scarier than the IRS from what I've read.

 

Would, or should a PPI reveal these things and thus pretty much point out that this plane is going to need X, Y & Z + + + and your looking at X$ to make things good.

 

Everyone says buy the plane that has the things you need already in it. Would love to but where are those wonderful deals? Everyone is snapping them up so fast they don't broadcast them on the internet.

 

This might be trivial but gotta ask. What's involved in the certification certificate? Is this just a tax for the states like a boat licence or is it more involved than that?

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Another fun one for you RIK...

You get to decide how much you want to pay for a PPI and who is going to perform it for you.

If you opt for the minimum for a couple hundred bucks, you take on a fair amount of financial risk.

If you opt for the top notch MSC for a couple thousand bucks, you take out most of the financial risk.

Are you a financial risk taker?

Are you looking for a perfect plane?

Or something in the middle?

Does that make sense?

-a-

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Buy and fly the best plane you can,  as is.  With few exceptions, you can buy the plane with the better avionics, engine, paint and interior at a lot less cost than you can pay someone else to ugrade your bird.  If you are an A&P and have time, than go for it.

Call me crazy but I bought a plane with a nice running but high time engine so I could have options. I could fly it for a while and if I liked it a lot invest in a new engine of my choice. I could also put in a new airtex interior and pick out all the colors and do some of the work myself. I just have to live with the avionics because that is a big money pit imho. My paint looks very nice and the interior is actually nice but dated. My cheap Mooney is way nicer than many 40k 172s I have seen it just has a high time engine. So I just might overhaul it and cleat up like the AOPA 152 which was a joy to sit in. The thing was so clean but had basic avionics and that's ok for medium length cross country VFR flights.

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Rik,

 

I've posted this before.  I've found owning a Mooney costs about $10k per year on average.  That's $3,000/yr hangar, $2500/yr insurance (2 IFR-rated pilots), $2500/yr annual ($1500 base cost, plus whatever they always seem to find), and $2,000/yr random maintenance.  When I say random maintenance, I mean you might have $15k one year, and $500 the next.  So it's really an average.

 

That's all before you turn the key for your first flight of the year.  Gas is not included.  Oil changes are not included.  Engine reserves not included.

 

Many find ways to decrease this cost.  Owner-assist annuals are popular, as are used parts and owner-manufactured parts.  I don't do any of that.  I wish I had more time to do it.

 

Bad years, such as the year we had to replace a corroded spar cap in the wing, require spending more on the plane than is probably financially logical.  But then again, none of this makes financial sense.

 

In some places, hangar rates are much higher than my $250/month.  So check your local airport to adjust that number.

 

This is just to give you an idea of one person's experience.  You can maybe do it cheaper.  It might cost you more.  Upgrades are extra.

 

Just one person's experience for you.  And I don't track it all that close.  I'm happier when I don't.

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I spend almost 1/3 of the purchase cost of my plane each and every year. Just for maint, hangers, fuel, etc.. Granted I'm in CA. And things are more pricey here. And I do maintain 2 hangers. But my point here is that the cost of an airplane is in the ownership and not in the purchase. Also, you need to be able to write a $50,000 check at any moment and not loose too much sleep over it.

If you need to reduce these costs a partnership may make sense.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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A couple of choices on OH too...

(1) Minimum expense is the field OH by the local mechanic doing the minimum work required to call it an OH.

(2) use a shop that specializes in OH.

(3) Factory remanufactured is popular because it comes with a zero time log.

(4) brand new from the factory....

Some people like a fully run-out plane, swap out the engine, prop and update radios and paint...

This takes a bit of effort and time and chunks of dough...

It wouldn't make sense as a first airplane. You probably have too many other things going on.

Work?

Family?

Learning to fly?

School?

Other priorities?

Best regards,

-a-

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Take the time to find a plane that has already been upgraded. There are several E, F, J models that have had the mods, upgraded to 430W, paint, interior etc..I know from upgrading my 231 that that money isn't coming back when I sell. Call All American, tell them what you want, they will tell you what you can expect to spend.

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Makes sense to me, one expects that the more you pay the more you get for what you paid... 

 

Someone mentioned a Zero Time Engine. Is there a limit as to how many times an engine can be over hauled or rebuilt?

The best answer is 'it depends'

As an assembly there isn't a set limit to how many times an engine can be overhauled. Certain components will have a limit to the number of times they can be machined, for ex. a Lycoming crank can be ground .003, .006 and .010 undersized, but after ten thou it's no longer repairable. But, it may not need grinding every overhaul, or it may need the max grind the first time around due to corrosion or damage. The crankcase has a minimum deck height ('thickness' from center line to cylinder base), but between production tolerances and the amount of material that has to be removed from the mating surface to correct any problems that could be anywhere from one time (unlikely) to five times(equally unlikely, but possible). Cylinders have a finite, but variable life as well depending on a lot of operational  factors, and possibly the  phase of the moon.  Most other components, like gears and such are solely on condition.

 

 Putting my salesman hat on for sec, only the factory can 'zero time' an engine, but in reality that's just an overhaul with no history and a fancy new logbook. They use servicable used cranks, cases, rods etc just like any other shop might

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Thanks for the info...

 

Now you raised another question... You stated that a new "Zero Time Engine" just gives the owner a new log book.. Does this mean there are two log books, one for the engine and one for the air frame or does the log book only cover the engine?

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