DesignGuy Posted December 7, 2014 Report Share Posted December 7, 2014 What all-in price for an ABS (anti-skid braking system) STC including installation costs would make it a 'no-brainer' decision for you? Some may not be interested at any price. Glad to hear your opinions as well. Potential benefits include reduced tire wear/damage, shorter braking distances, improved safety, etc. Existing systems for other types are costly and require extensive modification. Our plan intends to reduce cost by at least an order of magnitude. We are looking for interest in light FAR 23 for this sort of system. Thank you for your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 7, 2014 Report Share Posted December 7, 2014 For me... No interest until I could see a benefit. Actual numbers for my plane (M20R). Mooney pilots like devices that... - improve speed and power - improve efficiency - increase Useful Load - shorter T/O and landing are nice as well I can get heavy breaking using both my feet. Heavy breaking typically uses a lot of rubber. Passengers are not happy with this. Fortunately, I have a lot more rubber than I will use before my tires age and crack in the sidewalls... In my entire flying 'career', I have only needed more breaking than I had available, once. This is typical of being young and not paying enough attention. That was an uncomfortable, memorable moment, with no resulting issues... Is this for emergency use? Or does somebody intend to use it every day? What might you be thinking about? Welcome aboard... Feel free to introduce yourself. Best regards, -a- See this post... http://mooneyspace.com/topic/13767-to-tbo-or-not-to-tbo/page-2#entry181104 They mention students running off the end of the runway... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdav Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 I would be really interested in seeing how a system like this might be made to work for part 23 airplanes. I've seen it on the airliners, which would have a lot more weight on the wheels as they roll down the runway, and have a wow squat switch to tell the system that they are on the ground. We don't have a scissor switch on our aircraft, but maybe there's a way to get the same information. A guess .. I'd think the price point would probably need to be in the range of a couple of tire changes, maybe a bit higher thanks to possible safety benefits. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeev Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Maybe it's just me but I have landed on, wet, icy and runways on the shorter side in my J and never thought an ABS system would have helped that much. I feel our landing weights and speeds are too low to see a significant benefit. Now with that being said I have flat spotted a few tires during my initial Mooney transition and on a nasty crosswind day but even buying the Flight Custom III's its $250 a tire to replace. It sounds like a cool idea but i think it would be a hard sell if it ads significant weight and cost. Now I can see selling it on a new Mooney, Cirrus, Cessna TTx or the like where the over all price of entry is higher and high ticket items like G1000 and BRS are included. Good luck and thank you for putting in the effort to push innovation in GA. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Just another system to maintain. Never needed it, don't want it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 I would not choose to have one in a Mooney. Unnecessary complexity, more maintenance, cost, and I don't think it will add to safety considering our landing speeds. In fact, I have seen both failure of the ABS system and misuse of the system lead to mishaps in the airplanes I work on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesignGuy Posted December 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Carusoam, Thank you for your coments. Speed, weight, power - agreed...this is what typically does sell. Thank you for the reminder. The expectation for this device would not necissarily be full brake application in an emergency- although it would certainly do that if needed. What it would do on an average landing is provide some confidence for light brake application. There is a lot of discussion on this forum about using very slow landing speeds, avoiding use of brakes, tire damage, and so forth. There is also discussion that experience doesn't require brakes...which makes sense...but another tool in the toolbox...maybe there when you need it most... Anti-skid systems for larger twins can be $40,000 or more- obviously intolerable to the light aircraft owner. The intent would be to do something different with lower cost components, less complexity and less modification at a cost similar to the Alpha AOA installation. It will also take larger scale production to get the cost down. To work out the costs, the size of the market is important. Flight training fleet types are a good market for this device. Maybe that's the market...but we're looking around to see what other interest is out there. Here are some interesting past threads: http://mooneyspace.com/topic/12824-starting-a-new-ownership-with-a-flat-spot/?hl=%2Bflat+%2Bspot http://mooneyspace.com/topic/11637-brake-pads-check/?hl=braking#entry143143 http://mooneyspace.com/topic/8548-expensive-brain-fart/?hl=+smoke%20+brakes http://mooneyspace.com/topic/13552-wildlife-at-the-airport/?hl=tires#entry175289 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 In 15 years of ownership I"ve never skidded or felt the need to max brake. That includes short, dirt fields in Mexico. Mooneys are actually pretty fair short field planes if you slow them down first. I did have a partner once return the plane with a bald spot on a main so I suppose its possible to skid them. -Robert 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 I see where you are coming from. I can add one other detail. I have a T/O distance of about 800', by adding HP and a prop. It would be good if my landing roll-out were designed to match. (I would need to look that up to be sure) This would make a 2,000' runway really accessible... I have considered the BK AOA system, but I'm not on that project lately... Keep in mind, MooneySpace is a small community. We enjoy vendors here. Go ahead and introduce your company. (This would be proper) When The time is right to market your product, be sure to stay in the vendor forum area to avoid accidently annoying the paying passengers... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Carusoam, Thank you for your coments. Speed, weight, power - agreed...this is what typically does sell. Thank you for the reminder. The expectation for this device would not necissarily be full brake application in an emergency- although it would certainly do that if needed. What it would do on an average landing is provide some confidence for light brake application. There is a lot of discussion on this forum about using very slow landing speeds, avoiding use of brakes, tire damage, and so forth. There is also discussion that experience doesn't require brakes...which makes sense...but another tool in the toolbox...maybe there when you need it most... Anti-skid systems for larger twins can be $40,000 or more- obviously intolerable to the light aircraft owner. The intent would be to do something different with lower cost components, less complexity and less modification at a cost similar to the Alpha AOA installation. It will also take larger scale production to get the cost down. To work out the costs, the size of the market is important. Flight training fleet types are a good market for this device. Maybe that's the market...but we're looking around to see what other interest is out there. Here are some interesting past threads: http://mooneyspace.com/topic/12824-starting-a-new-ownership-with-a-flat-spot/?hl=%2Bflat+%2Bspot http://mooneyspace.com/topic/11637-brake-pads-check/?hl=braking#entry143143 http://mooneyspace.com/topic/8548-expensive-brain-fart/?hl=+smoke%20+brakes http://mooneyspace.com/topic/13552-wildlife-at-the-airport/?hl=tires#entry175289 Perhaps rather than gauging the size of the market, try to determine what the cost would be to the market based on different expected installed base sizes. If you follow some of the threads on safety features, the interest starts to wane when more zeros get added to the expected "go to market" pricing. The air bag seat belt thread is a perfect example. Looks like around $2k would get people engaged, around $4k got them disengaged. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schule Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Maybe the best Mooney ABS system is proficiency. I've been into 1600' gravel strips and the portion of the event which braking is required is quite small compared to the approach and go around decision points. Landing on speed at an appropriate point on a long enough strip of runway is very important and usually less limiting than the take-off distance required for the low power Mooney fleet. Current POH shows a 960' landing ground roll vs 1000' T/O ground roll. Reduced friction surfaces could be a place to market and ABS, but I have seen ABS just continue to cycle on ice without actually bringing and aircraft or car to a stop until dry pavement was found. It could also make a difference at a rotation speed abort or emergency parking lot landing. $0 value to me over the current system. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 So, if you adapted a existing motorcycle ABS system to an aircraft, the weight and size would be acceptable. The modules cost about $500 for a motorcycle, so $2500 for an aircraft. You would also need to modify your wheels to have wheel position sensors and a microprocessor control module. It seems unlikely that you could install the system for less then $5000, probably twice that. It has been proven that motorcycles and cars are safer with ABS, but they spend all their time with the wheels on the ground, our planes spend a very small portion of the distance traveled with the wheels on the ground and a fraction of that doing critical breaking. If a motorcycle part was used, would it be available in 25 years? How many RLOC accidents could be prevented with this system It still looks like a solution looking for a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 For the OP's reference, I spend approx 1/2 mile on the runway for trips from 4nm to 400+nm. Of that, braking is less than 1000', not counting turns and stops while taxiing which is all heavily airport-dependent. Many taxi turns are accomplished simply by pulling throttle to idle and allowing the plane to slow. I learned to fly in WV and OH, and flew in all seasons. I have landed at a snow-covered fields with plowed runways, and I have never had any braking issues. If it's that bad outside, I don't want to be out in it! Another thing to consider is that my maximum takeoff weight, including myself, passengers, baggage and fuel, is less than the empty curb weight of most small cars (2575 lbs). Putting two wheel speed sensors, computer controls and full power brakes in place of my manual brakes (one brake pedal for each main wheel) does not sound easy, lightweight or inexpensive, to say nothing of the required STC approval process. Other than that, I don't object. I like ABS in my cars, even though my insurance company stopped giving ABS discounts many years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WardHolbrook Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 I've had antiskid on all of my "working airplanes" for the past 30 years. Is it something that you need? Honestly, it's pretty rare that you need to get on the brakes hard enough to trigger the system. However, it's like antilock brakes on your car - you don't need it until you need it, then you're glad you've got it. It's the same thing with antiskid - raining or snowing, marginal runway - yes it's a good thing. Is it something that you frequently do in your Mooney? If not, then it would probably be something that wouldn't do you much good. If you frequent marginal runways, then yes, it would make some sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awful_Charlie Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 I'm interested in things like this, but as always, there is a trade off with cost, and particularly on Mooneys, with weight. Taking the last one first, I'd be unwilling to lose say 10lbs of load, but at 5lbs I might consider it - particularly if I can put most of those well aft (my CofG is far enough forward already - being able to add it a long way aft would not affect my usable as much) As for the cost - if it was 2 digits it would be a no brainer - if it was 5 digits the same, but in the opposite direction! In the middle there is the 3 or 4 digit sum, where it competes with all the other accessories out there, such as a new Nav/Comm/GPS, an active traffic system, new seats, air bags and so on. As pointed out earlier, a flat-spotted type runs into over 200 bucks by the time you've paid the A&P to jack and change, and on icy runways if it means the difference between staying on the runway of sliding off the side, then the value is possibly more. The number of times I have done either is fortunately small, but for 2500USD I don't think I'm in; that's ten flat spotted tyres. For 1AMU I'll consider it, but I'll be looking at the running cost and weight, as well as the A&P time to fit it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Seems kind of pointless to me IMHO I seldom have to use much braking at all even when landing on runways less than 3000 ft. I would think it would also need some sort of bypass system for differential braking while making those tight turns on the ramp. The best safety system is planning ahead for the landing just like when you are going to land on grass or dirt etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yvesg Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 This type of system would help when landing on icy runways... so we are talking about Northern climates. The issue with Northern climates is that it is COLD. was -15 C here this morning and we are not winter yet. I flew my Mooney at -30 C once... Whatever you do with this, make sure it is tested down that cold (and possibly even colder for some other Mooney friends who fly further north than I do). Yves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 This type of system would help when landing on icy runways... so we are talking about Northern climates. The issue with Northern climates is that it is COLD. was -15 C here this morning and we are not winter yet. I flew my Mooney at -30 C once... Whatever you do with this, make sure it is tested down that cold (and possibly even colder for some other Mooney friends who fly further north than I do). Yves No need for all that with global warming, oops I mean climate change that will not be an issue. As soon as we get rid of all that snow and ice up there I can fly up to visit and only need to pack shorts and T shirts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisk Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 For me, 8 Airhawk tires, and 5 pounds. ~around $600, less labor than swapping out 8 tires, and not adding more than 5 lbs. Now if I bought Goodyear Custom III tires, maybe $1600. --And If I am flat spotting more than 8 tires in 10 years, I probably need to invest in some training. For a flight school (usually not a Mooney), the cost benefit ratio might be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 For sensors, probably the BMW 1200GS manual ring and cog may be the way to go. The problem with those when a small rock would bind the gears. For Opto sensor not sure it would handle the ICe and snow well. I did not get a 1200GS with the anti lock due to the issue with the system at the time. Not sure if they worked through them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 For me, 8 Airhawk tires, and 5 pounds. ~around $600, less labor than swapping out 8 tires, and not adding more than 5 lbs. Now if I bought Goodyear Custom III tires, maybe $1600. --And If I am flat spotting more than 8 tires in 10 years, I probably need to invest in some training. Hmmm . . . Seven years, one skid from a lifted wing, no flat spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Weight distribution offers some opportunities in braking... In an auto, 80% or more braking power comes from the front wheels... In aviation, we don't even have a brake up front... It would be interesting to see how the Motorcycle world has handled the single wheel braking situation while allowing for variable geometry and steering of a Mooney. Non-flying ground speed for an O is near 60kias (GW dependent). Landing with the wind it could be significantly higher. Would this system be hydraulic? Could it be full electronic? Should we down-shift before braking? (2700rpm used when landing an O for go-around readiness) Would loading the wings help before braking? (Speed brakes may give a couple of pounds to the wheels) How could it help with high GS landings? (down wind landing if required) Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Remember to pull the yoke all the way back before heavy breaking to get max weight on the mains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Having flown in WNY for a few years more than I am willing to admit, there is a lot to be said about aerodynamic braking. Even on a 2600' airport, with a coating of ice, I never felt compelled to "lock them up". Mr. Design -- figure out how to get a great paint job for $5k or an interior at the AeroComfort level for $5k and I am in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 I'll paint yer plane fir five thousand smackeroonies! For jist a tiny bit more, I'll even use a BRAND NEW brush! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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