Do you have TKS

[Tim Jodice]

How do you like having TKS? What is involved in taking care of it? Lastly is is worth it? I live in new England and am looking a buying an aircraft equipped with it. Any other information regarding TKS would be great!

Thanks,

Tim

[Joe Zuffoletto]

My current and previous Mooneys both have TKS and I love it. If you live in a coastal climate, as you do, and if you want to fly IFR in the winter then it's very much worth it. I used to live in Northern CA and flew to Southern CA once or twice a month. In the winter I would occasionally find myself climbing or descending through freezing layers and the TKS always saved the day. It gave me great peace of mind. Having said that, if I found myself in icing conditions I would still try to get out, even with the TKS, because you never know how much worse it might get. I'm sure there are severe icing situations where TKS won't be able to keep up, though I've never encountered anything like that.

 

Care is easy: Use a scrub brush (natural or plastic bristles) with mild soap to clean the bugs off. Do not use steelwool or anything abrasive, or anything stronger than dish soap. You also need to exercise the system once a month or so in flight to keep the membranes moist. This involves running it in flight for 10 minutes or so until all protected surfaces are completely covered. Be sure to stay in the air long enough afterwards to allow it to dry off before landing, which takes about 20-30 minutes at cruise speeds.

[BorealOne]

As above. Tks improves winter dispatch significantly and is great peace of mind at any time of year at our latitudes. There is no real downside - people might say 'but 3-4 knots less than book' - I say those knots don't do you any good if you are stuck on the ground or sweating bullets in icing.

[Showmethemooney]

I live near the Tetons so I see ice even in the summer when climbing into the teens. TKS is great but unlike inflatable boots, you don't just press the button to pop ice off. If you have not run the system in a while, the panels and the absorbent pad behind the panel will dry out and can take a while to get saturated. You don't want to run into icing conditions with your TKS system all dried out because it can take a while to become effective, not what you want if ice is accumulating. It is also best if you can run it right before you go into ice so that you wet the leading edges, but you don't always anticipate that quickly enough.

 

If I expect to depart into ice, I will run the TKS on the ground before the flight to prime the system. I like to see it dripping even out on the end of the wing. Scott Utz at Arapahoe recommends that you wipe the TKS panels with a wet cloth to moisten the pores to assist in the priming.

 

In flight, it is not always easy to see if the TKS is working. I can sometimes see tiny streams of fluid running back across the top of the wing, but not always depending on the light.

 

I do worry about the corrosive effects of TKS fluid on bare aluminum. I rarely can wash the aircraft just after using the TKS. But I have not seen any corrosion.

 

My high pressure warning light came on recently so I had my filter replaced... $500. Expensive filter.

 

Oh, and my TKS system drips at the left wing root... it doesn't matter how long I fly it after using it, it could drip for days so I keep a pan under the drip point. Don't step in TKS fluid if you have a nice epoxied floor - it is slick.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

@Showmethemooney: Excellent additional information, and all true. BTW, I flew my 1998 Encore with TKS for 11 years and never saw any corrosion.

 

I've also experienced the left wing root drip but it's never lasted for days. Interesting.

[Tim Jodice]

You guys are great thank you for the fast feedback.

[Cruiser]

One thing you will want to check on the plane you are looking at is the color of the epoxy used to attach the stall strips to the wing. There have been several incidents of these strips coming off in flight.

 

CAV Aerospace switched to CS3204B1/2 sealant to avoid this problem. If the stall strips are attached with green colored epoxy you should have them removed and rebonded with the new sealant. Loosing a stall strip is very expensive.

[Tim Jodice]

One thing you will want to check on the plane you are looking at is the color of the epoxy used to attach the stall strips to the wing. There have been several incidents of these strips coming off in flight. CAV Aerospace switched to CS3204B1/2 sealant to avoid this problem. If the stall strips are attached with green colored epoxy you should have them removed and rebonded with the new sealant. Loosing a stall strip is very expensive.

The airplane I am looking at buying is a Baron with a Flight Ice system installed. Did they all use the green glue? I will check for it. Thanks again. You say several incidents of these coming off in flight. Is it simply that they come off or does the airplane fly diffrently with out them?

[FoxMike]

I would not get overly excited about the stall strip glue.  Mine are still attached and have been green glued since 1999.  Do not let anyone help you push the airplane by pushing on the stall strips.  When shopping for a plane a close visual inspection of the strips will show if they are fully or partially attached.

[carusoam]

New England may be close to the coast...

But the source of icing moisture for them usually come from the Great Lakes....

Same challenge, but more of it...

If you fly often for work, the FIKI system has some real benefits.

There are still limitations to Single engine flight in weather...

I'd rather fly a Mooney...

Good luck,

-a-

[Tim Jodice]

New England may be close to the coast...

But the source of icing moisture for them usually come from the Great Lakes....

Same challenge, but more of it...

If you fly often for work, the FIKI system has some real benefits.

There are still limitations to Single engine flight in weather...

I'd rather fly a Mooney...

Good luck,

-a-

I won't be flying over the great lakes much. In all but clear days you have to deal with some kind of icing n the winter. Flying for work about 3 time a week. Not sure what your point was about limitations to single engine flight in icing, I think that Is obvious. Ice Taking down a TBM not too long ago is an unfortunate example of your statement.

[StevenL757]

I have the FiKi-approved TKS solution on my Ovation.  The previous owner retrofitted it in late-2007 just prior to me purchasing the plane.  I would have most likely passed up the purchase had it not been installed.  Gives me peace-of-mind on several levels.  Though I make it a personal rule not to fly purposely into those conditions where possible, I know I can get out of most conditions, and agree the system is not perfect and could be defeated under the right conditions.

 

I keep a 55-gal drum of TKS-406B in the hangar (I get mine around $595 including shipping - not sure if others have done the 55-gal drum option, and if you do, curious as to how much you pay).  I keep the plane's tank filled regularly, and learned not to be afraid of using the stuff liberally to keep the system running normally.  Messy stuff, and I too get dripping from both wing roots (normal) for a few days after flying with the system engaged.  Couldn't imagine being without it.  As far as corrosive effects on any portion of the aircraft - I still have yet to see any after 6+ years.  I'm fanatical about cleaning the plane, so I'd like to think that has helped contribute to keeping corrosion away.

 

Agree with Doug that exercising the system is important...especially in the summer, when the bladders can stick together after a few weeks in warm climate.  On a couple of occasions, I've found it takes upwards of 10 minutes' running time on the ground to soak all panels - time which you wouldn't want to spend in the air waiting for the system to fully-engage.

 

Joe's point on cleaning panels can't be stated any clearer also...always use nylon to clean bugs and crap from your leading edges.  Don't discount the importance of this.  I use a blue Scotchbrite, and clean WITH the chord line ("up-down", no "side-side" for Karate Kid fans) while the system is running on the ground.  Some folks will say 100LL is also acceptable to clean with, but I personally wouldn't try it.  TKS-406B (and the other varients acceptable for use) have a natural cleaning agent in them.  I'm sure other "acceptable" fluids are fine, by I personally choose not to introduce anything else into the panels as much as possible, and have never had an issue using my methods so far.  Your mileage may vary...

[aviatoreb]

My TKS was installed on my plane in 1994.  So it must be one of the earliest STC installs.  I am not experiencing any corrosive effects.

 

I clean leading edges also with TKS fluid - on a paper towel - gets the bugs off no problem.  In fact those titanium TKS panels are a good way to easily keep your leading edges clean.

[carusoam]

AirTim,

I was trying to be as clear as possible, but was unable...

The moisture we see in New England/NY/NJ often comes FROM the Great Lakes.

You won't have to fly over the lakes themselves. They come to you...

One of our (West Coast?) members made the point of being near the coast can cause this.

Since you are in the North East, but PROBABLY, may not expect to experience coastal weather.

But in fact, the Great Lakes seems to supply coastal weather quite often, all the way to the East Coast.

FIKI is nice to have when the weather on the ground is near freezing, clouds (moisture) are low , temperatures are below freezing at higher altitudes. The FIKI system includes de-icing the prop.

This is mostly a significant challenge if you fly IFR.

As far as single engine goes... The ability to out climb the icing situation can be important. Some twins aren't any better at this than a Mooney. A turbo system would add to this capability.

If I was flying my plane for work in the NE. I would be looking for a machine with a turbo and FIKI system.

See what I mean...?

Best regards,

-a-

[Joe Zuffoletto]

@carusoam: The Great Lakes have coasts too! 

[WardHolbrook]

...If I was flying my plane for work in the NE. I would be looking for a machine with a turbo and FIKI system...

That stuff gives you more options when dealing with skuzzy weather. More options are good things. 

[carusoam]

Joe,

I just checked, They're surrounded by them!

Anyone from Buffalo is aware of that as well.

Cleveland people know, it they just keep it quiet.

We (I) measure the effect in inches of snow that fall each winter.

NJ 30"

Boston 42"

Buffalo 130"

-a-

Keep in mind....

I am a PP.... Not commercial or professional.

[Tim Jodice]

AirTim,

I was trying to be as clear as possible, but was unable...

The moisture we see in New England/NY/NJ often comes FROM the Great Lakes.

You won't have to fly over the lakes themselves. They come to you...

One of our (West Coast?) members made the point of being near the coast can cause this.

Since you are in the North East, but PROBABLY, may not expect to experience coastal weather.

But in fact, the Great Lakes seems to supply coastal weather quite often, all the way to the East Coast.

FIKI is nice to have when the weather on the ground is near freezing, clouds (moisture) are low , temperatures are below freezing at higher altitudes. The FIKI system includes de-icing the prop.

This is mostly a significant challenge if you fly IFR.

As far as single engine goes... The ability to out climb the icing situation can be important. Some twins aren't any better at this than a Mooney. A turbo system would add to this capability.

If I was flying my plane for work in the NE. I would be looking for a machine with a turbo and FIKI system.

See what I mean...?

Best regards,

-a-

I do see what you mean, I will tread lightly with this as I do not want to start a twin vs single debate. My reason for a deiced baron is this, 40% of the time I have 4-5 people family and friends usually, I only fly alone when going to work, 1620 UL give me what I need to carry what I need inside and enough fuel to go 800 miles LOP with NBAA IFR reserves. I agree with you regarding engine out performance, if I had an engine failure in icing conditions that would be an emergency to me and all I would ask of the other engine in that instance is to make the airplane a very good glider. But 99% of the time both will be running and you can climb through the icing faster than most singles. In my experience the only twin vs single that I have flown that would not be good is a 1966 booted twin Comanche compared to a TKS equipped 1994 Mooney Bravo. I say those two because I have actually flown both and no question the Bravo puts the Comanche to shame. You can't deny simple physics a 5200 pound baron with 570 hp gives you a 9.1 power to weight ratio, a bravo at 3300 pounds with 270 hp gives you a 12.2 power to weight ratio. Up to about 10000 feet the baron will out climb a bravo. Lastly even though I am looking a a baron I posted on mooney space because the is no disputing that mooneys are the most available GA airplane with TKS so I figured that mooney owners would be the best source for information regarding TKS.

[Marauder]

Joe,

I just checked, They're surrounded by them!

Anyone from Buffalo is aware of that as well.

Cleveland people know, it they just keep it quiet.

We (I) measure the effect in inches of snow that fall each winter.

NJ 30"

Boston 42"

Buffalo 130"

-a-

Keep in mind....

I am a PP.... Not commercial or professional.

I am a WNY product and spent many years shoveling and plowing most of that annual snowfall. Of course, when I was younger, global warming didn't exist and we routinely got 160 to 180" of snow. I also had the pleasure of living in Buffalo through the "Blizzard of '77".

I also enjoyed flying in WNY through a number of winters. Lake Erie until it froze over (and it didn't freeze over every year) was a constant source of moisture that created the great amount of snowstorms and also a steady flow of stratus clouds. Most of the time, the 1000' to 2000' ceiling only had a 3000' or 4000' top. We got pretty accustomed to looking for tops and layer reports before launching simply because it was almost a 100% chance of some sort of ice.

But it was also not consistent. There were times in the winter I was in the clouds, picking up nothing and others were. And at other times, I was picking up stuff and others weren't. When Lake Erie froze over, the snow and icing backed off a bit.

Lake Ontario on the other hand is a deep lake and it will not freeze over. That is why areas like Syracuse get hammered with a lot of snow and snow late into the year.

There is also some orographic lifting that happens in both the southern tier of WNY and closer to the Appalachians. This will force the ice laden clouds up a few thousand feet.

In WNY you also get the joy of watching out for snow banks on runway and taxiways, not to mention my all time favorite situation. Take off on a late winter sunny morning. Runway is dry and you return in the evening to find your runway is covered with a layer of ice. Seems the runway fairy was busy melting the snow banks, only to have them re-freeze on the runway as the temps dropped. I got to learn all about aerodynamic braking living in WNY.

The important lesson I learned about icing is simple: GET OUT NOW!

[Marauder]

Anthony -- I read your other post about FIKI and turbo. I got to see a number of planes with known ice capability after their landing. Some of my friends were freight dogs flying checks and I would meet them for a meal. Funny how things like Nav and Com antenna break off when they are iced up, or a boot can malfunction or simply that the amount of ice accrues a lot faster than the system can handle (I actually saw someone land -- if you want to call it that, with a heavy load of ice. Nothing like watching a single engine plane coming in with the engine running hard, flaps up and watch it make ice cubes on the hard landing). Would I like FIKI in a plane? Absolutely! But I am also a realist and know that icing is something that can ruin your day pretty quickly regardless of the equipment. Colgan flight 3407 should be a good reminder of that...

[carusoam]

I was living near Boston for the '77 blizzard.

Governor Dukakis made a name for himself by clearing RT 128 of cars using any means that were required...

Car owners were not very happy with the destruction...

A picture of him in the tank came later....

Yes, Avoiding ice is Plan A.

But for some one to plan to use the plane as a work tool... Turbo, XM, ADSB and FIKI would be on my list. Mostly because that's what is available to the Mooney pilot.

Of course, I used a plane about six times for work as a salesman.... Even less as a machine buyer...

Now I'm retired...

Plan B would also be high on my list.

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

If I go back to work.... I would follow Joe...go Acclaim!

Now, I'm just stirring the pot...!

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

During the Blizzard, anyone with a 4 wheel drive vehicle was called by the local police to help with critical transportation (doctors, nurses, etc.). As well, the snowmobile owners were called into action for blood runs. There was also a restriction for anyone who weighed less than 120 pounds (I think that was the weight) from being outside. The winds were the worst part... Ah, those were the days. Nothing like a winter calamity to set your values correctly. Not like the milk, bread, eggs runs around here when the words "chance of" are muttered. There you go again Anthony -- getting me into trouble with the TSP (Thread Scope Police)

[carusoam]

Sorry Chris,

I may have got aggressive when I realized the thread went....'I'm buying brand B...'

Isn't there a forum for that? Or is BeechTalk somewhere near the darkside of MooneySpace?

New forum...Darkside: For those who have gone brand B, twin mooney, TNIO550 only, or experimentals...

Diverging further...,

-a-

[Marauder]

Yes Anthony, there is certainly some sort of B virus going around with Alan, Brett and now John all succumbing to the infection.