urbanti Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Having bought and sold a couple of planes, I thought I would start a thread that might help first time airplane sellers. Tips for Prospective Sellers, presuming that you have an attractive airplane: 1. When composing an ad and when dealing with possible buyers, keep in mind that the name of the game is to provide enough comfort to the buyer that they will risk $500-$1,500 on a non-recoverable prebuy inspection of your airplane. 2. Especially in connection with pre-201 vintage airplanes, some of these aircraft have serious deficiencies due to damage, or incorrect or deferred maintenance. Since virtually every airplane ad starts out with the phrase "meticulously maintained" you have to say more than that to be convincing. 3. It is important to convince the prospective buyer that you are aware of the pertinent facts regarding your plane. Its shocking how many sellers I've spoken with who sincerely attest to no DH, when two minutes of Googling will uncover several accidents regarding their plane. In those instances, its not the DH that runs off the buyer, its the question of what else the seller doesn't know that is disconcerting. Making accurate statements regarding inop equipment too, telling somebody the plane is in perfect condition and then a three minute walkaround discloses broken equipment or big blue stains under the wings undermines buyer confidence in the seller. 4. Have a recent annual from a credible, well-known Mooney shop can be persuasive. The guy on the field who works on Skyhawks and does your annual for $500 a year doesn't carry too much weight with buyers - many of them are woefully unaware of the various Mooney Service Bulletins, etc. While the MSC or Mooney specialist may or may not do a better job than your local guy, their stamp of approval may get the buyer to pull the trigger on a prebuy. 5. Pricing is important to get people to call on the ad. When calculating your asking price, its OK to ask for a little more than you may be willing to accept, but be very careful about asking for a number that's wildly above the average on TAP for your model a/c. I see a lot of planes where the owner has taken the price he paid ten years ago, and then added in the cost of every tire and battery he's installed. You shouldn't expect to get added value from normal maintenance, only from bona fide upgrades, and even then you shouldn't expect to get a dollar for dollar increase in the planes value. If your asking price in the ad is much higher than the field, make sure the ad explains why by noting all of the new features. 6. Be friendly if contacted about your plane, respond promptly with pictures by email, don't mutter about tire kickers, etc. Also don't be shocked and dismayed if a long distance buyer asks for electronic copies of the logs. There are a lot of planes on the market and buyers are trying to determine which sellers are honest and reasonable people. Now that I have some experience I don't pursue relationships with crotchety sellers even if their planes are very attractive. 7. Importantly, keep the airplane flying regularly. Many if not most a/c for sale haven't flown much in the last two years. This interjects uncertainty as to the possibility of corrosion in the engine and the buyer will not offer top dollar. Not an appraiser, just wanted to share my perspective Tim 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 my personal peeve relates to #5. I never called anyone that didn't have a price listed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964-M20E Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Tim good advice I would add: pics, pics and more pics the most you can put in the ad both interior and exterior close up far away. Start with a few outside then few interior and then get to the more detailed pics. Alos make sure the pics are clear and well exposed. Scans of the log books at least the last couple of years should also be included Detailed list of avionics Replaced parts or upgrades over the last 2 years Honest valuation of interior and paint Most imoprtantly put the price in the ad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotarPilot Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Great post. Most of the Mooney sellers on here seem to be pretty good about placing informative ads with good photos, from what I've seen. This thread should be posted on a larger forum such as Pilots of America. I enjoy looking at planes for sale sometimes (Just cuz) and think it's funny when someone posts small photos, duplicate photos, blurry cockpit photos or NO photos at all on their ad. This would give me little to no confidence as a potential buyer and I would likely just move on to the next plane. My current plane was my first, and hopefully my last airplane purchase. I live on the west coast and found my plane on the east coast with a broker called Aircraft Merchants in NC. I was very apprehensive about a lot of things being a first time used plane buyer such as, reviewing the logs, buying a 34 year old airplane, doing a good prebuy and exchanging A LOT of money with someone I didn't know (I had to put a $5,000 refundable deposit to hold the plane while I flew out to look at it - Remember, I'm a cheapskate and that's a lot of money for me). Once I bought the plane I spent a few days in NC while I did some transition training before flying back to CA with another Mooneyspace member, FlyDave. While I was there I spent some time with the broker and got the opportunity to see how he runs his business. I accompanied him while I visited a seller and obtained is logbooks in preparation to sell his plane (a C-182). I can say he was a straight up guy who sells planes how I think they should be sold. He organizes and scans ALL aircraft logs, takes lots of good photos of the planes and was honest about any issues the plane had. I really appreciated doing business with him and if I ever bought another plane I would hope it would be through him. So if you're considering buying a plane I'll reiterate what Tim said but also add this - Scan all those logs (Especially if you have a solid plane) - Take lots of pictures (Especially if you have a nice plane) - Write a detailed ad and SELL your airplane But, if you have a POS, well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisk Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Now that I have some experience I don't pursue relationships with crotchety sellers even if their planes are very attractive. Yes! Life is to short to deal with people like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Having just sold a plane that was on the higher end of the prices for it's model (but also upgraded to the hilt with avionics) I agree with all of this. I would add that a sixth sense to determine how serious a buyer is would be helpful. The reason you may encounter stubborn or unfriendly sellers is that the amount of time wasted by people "in the market" is unreal. Offers for half of the asking price, demands for countless log entries and then completely ceasing to communicate, etc. Its really a hassle. So the best advice I can offer is to buy a plane that will suit you for a long long time, that way you can avoid being a seller as much as possible. It's not fun. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 My A/C is for sale right now. It is a great, over equipped 201 w/MSC mx. The majority of calls I have received are from other classified publications or brokers. I am not just crotchety about selling my plane, but overtly shity. The bottom line for most Mooney buyers (except mission specific long bodies)? The typical buyer is a Cherokee or Skyhawk flier looking for a step up retract. They are looking to spend under $100k and want everything that attracts us to Mooneys. The average Mooney buyer expects a WAAS GPS, good frame and engine times with NDH and expects to get it for $85k or under. I will only deal with potential buyers via e-mail and I will not ferry the a/c for show. Don't owe anything on it and I am hunkered down for as long as it takes. There are 39 Mooney 201's on the market, perhaps the most I have ever seen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisk Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 I would add that a sixth sense to determine how serious a buyer is would be helpful. The reason you may encounter stubborn or unfriendly sellers is that the amount of time wasted by people "in the market" is unreal. Offers for half of the asking price, demands for countless log entries and then completely ceasing to communicate, etc. Its really a hassle. When I sold my 172, I avoided much of this problem by having all the logs on line, as well as a ton of good quality pictures on line. I think I used photobucket, but I'm not sure. Anyway, it was easy to answer an email with a link. I also think it gave the buyer a sense of what the plane was actually like. It showed the good as well as the bad. There were no surprises when the plane sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 I peruse Barnstormers a good bit looking for interesting airplanes. The free listings only allow for limited verbiage. One can see a huge variation in effective ads and waste-of-space ads. Some of my favorite phrases: This one won't last (usually on listings 3+ months old). Reluctant seller. Lost medical. Wife says sell. Cream puff. (Really.). Price not negotiable. No tire kickers. $25,000 firm, make offer. When selling an aircraft, never write a prospective buyer off. Sometimes the most unlikely prospect will show up with cash! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Good post Tim - great suggestions. -Seth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheelBuster Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 As a new guy (both on mooneyspace and to flying) and a potential buyer a few months from now, I could not agree more with what has been said. While I am new in this market I am not new to buying "things" - houses, boats, cars, etc. I have been watching the market for over a year now to get a feel for what is out there and what to beware of and am learning more every day (especially on this forum - thank you all!). One of the most important factors in every purchase I have made (if pre-owned) was the seller. Easy to work with, full history and disclosure, very up front about the good AND the bad, and reasonable. I will pay more to buy from someone who I feel is open and honest, never cut a corner, and went above and beyond on maintenance and upkeep. It's not worth it to save a few dollars and have a massive repair shortly after due to poor maintenance previously. If something is a possible issue or may need to be repaired or replaced in the near future, be honest about it and price it accordingly. Sometimes getting a better price knowing what is needed to make the correction is a great way to go as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drake15d Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Why would anyone ever want to sell their Mooney? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFromCB Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Why would anyone ever want to sell their Mooney? To move up to it's big brother, the TBM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Why would anyone ever want to sell their Mooney? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccray Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 To buy a Mooney with a bigger engine... and the wife wants air conditioning. p.s. I want A/C too but that's not a good excuse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Zuffoletto Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 One of the most important factors in every purchase I have made (if pre-owned) was the seller. Easy to work with, full history and disclosure, very up front about the good AND the bad, and reasonable. I will pay more to buy from someone who I feel is open and honest, never cut a corner, and went above and beyond on maintenance and upkeep. +1. I've been very lucky with my 4 (pre-owned) airplane purchases over the years and it's about 95% because I was dealing with great sellers. About two years ago I decided to add a Vans RV-8 to my hangar. Buying certificated aircraft is one thing, but buying homebuilts is a whole other animal. I'm not a builder or a gearhead, so I figured it would be smart to take my time and look at as many RV-8's as I could before I pulled the trigger (or not). I also thought it would be smart to buy from a builder if possible so I would get firsthand info about the plane and possibly technical support later on. It took a year before I found an aircraft and a builder/seller that I felt comfortable with. The builder shared my passion for bespoke machinery and built an RV-8 that the folks at the Mooney factory would have been proud of. He cut no corners, had flawless logs and documentation, and was very upfront about the plusses and minuses his aircraft. It also helped that I had met about 12-15 other builders along the way that put this guy and his airplane into perspective. I was a bit apprehensive about buying a homebuilt but I can say one year later that I have no regrets because I found a great seller who had a great aircraft. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryoder Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 I would include a list of things that should be replaced soon. Everyone knows this list so why not include it. A car dealer will put new tires and brakes on a car and even fix tears in seats to take a car from wholesale to retail value. When selling with these items deferred the buyer gets the power of deciding when and how much to fix. If I wanted a brand new airplane I would remortgage my houses and go into debt to get everything new. So I expect some deferred maintenance especially on a low cost airplane. Just tell me what those items are now so there are no surprises when I show up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob - S50 Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 I might add including the useful load. When we were looking for our plane we decided we did not want one with a useful load under 950#. You'd be surprised how many Mooney's out there have a useful load under 900#. I can't tell you how many calls I made to potential sellers to ask the useful load. One plane was 850# and told me that a 950# useful load did not exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Update...suddenly, I am getting about 2 calls a day and I have an appointment to show next Wed. We'll see. Ever the cynic, I am. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheelBuster Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Update...suddenly, I am getting about 2 calls a day and I have an appointment to show next Wed. We'll see. Ever the cynic, I am. Good luck - that is one amazing looking plane that should find a good home soon! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pursell Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 A broker on www.beechtalk.com sets the gold standard for Internet ads. Although this is not a Mooney nor a Beechcraft, it will give you a template. http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=94813 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheelBuster Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 A broker on www.beechtalk.com sets the gold standard for Internet ads. Although this is not a Mooney nor a Beechcraft, it will give you a template. http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=94813 Very nicely done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted July 28, 2014 Report Share Posted July 28, 2014 Beechtalk had a thread today that said they were up to 28,000 accounts/users, Redboard, only 10,000. I enjoy the Main Street on Mooneyspace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted July 29, 2014 Report Share Posted July 29, 2014 I always enjoy to know that "selling for a friend". has my confidence been inspired by that information? If the plane has been on the market and they are depreciating assets, should not the price come down in that year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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