Custome & Border Patrol Finally stopped me--with armed police

[Mooneymite]

Bad treatment by the TSA is great for general aviation!

:-)

If the TSA gets any worse there will be a scarcity of good, used Mooneys....the "airline-alternative".

Be happy.

[AndyFromCB]

I have crossed the border exactly 3 times (not including over flying Canada to Michigan) and each of the three times it was not exactly pleasant but hardly the experience described here - one of the times was definitely a full one hour ramp check.

 

Occasion 1 about 2 years ago, a friend here and I (another professor and a pilot from MAE), decided we wanted to learn EAPIS so we would fly to Canada and practice doing all the rules.  So we flew to CYCC which is a total of 30nm from my home base of KPTD.  We had canpass.  So it was very easy going to Canada.  No one even met us in Canada so no problem we called the number - welcome to Canada.  Then we turned around to return home.  Now in these rural airports you need to get up pretty high to catch ATC - Boston Center - in fact we had to get up to 5000ft in a 30nm trip that is pretty goofy - who would do such a thing and go to all the trouble of filing eapis, calling a head to make sure we would have CBP waiting for us and so forth if they were bad guys?  Well we flew up to 5000ft, opened the flight plan, then dived down to KMSS (the port of entry) and did everything by the book.  A single CBP agent was waiting for us - but he was most unpleasant.  For an hour he interrogated us, dog sniffing the airplane (but did not climb on) and geiger counter.  And he asked for every possible paper work.  This did not cross the line but it was most unpleasant.

 

Next time about a year later I took my (then 16 year old) son to New Brunswick.  I decided to check in at Burlington.  Turns out there was a big military transport coming right after us so when I called to tell them I was coming they said I better hurry or don't come back.  (Don't come back?!!)  So I hurried - and I beat the big transport plane.  They left me sitting in front of the CBP building inside the airplane for 15 min before anyone came out.  Then a guy came out and walked around the airplane with a dog and then went back in - no eye contact.  And we continued to sit in the plane - sweating in the summer.  Then another guy came out - geiger counter.  Walked around - no eye contact.  Still sitting.  Then after a few minutes another guy came out and addressed us and we got out - he was curt but it was not a problem.  It was only 5 minutes at that point standard questions.

 

Next time was a few months after that - I flew back from Nova Scotia with my (then 11 year old) son.  My 11 year old is not a good flyer and he had gotten air sick upon landing and he had vomit on his shirt and he looked most quessy.  So it took just a few minutes for the CBP to approach the plane and had told my son he could sit on the wing outside the plane on the black walking strip while I sit in the plane.  The two CBP started as if they were going to be very stern but as soon as I explained my son had just thrown up and they looked at him it was like a light switch and they turned downright friendly and very friendly to my son.  ANd that took like two min.

 

So I guess the key is to show up with an 11 year old with vomit on his shirt.

 

That always seems to be the key in turning a citizen of USA from the robotic follower of pre-programmed instructions into a human being: puke. I have travelled all over the world and quite frankly still feel the North Koreans are a bit friendlier than an average US CBP agent. Iranians are almost like brining grand kids to visit grandma in comparison. The only thing that keeps us from becoming a complete totalitarian state is the combo of ACLU and NRA.

[jetdriven]

 

3.  I would definitely not let my pilot license nor any other documents out of my hands.  i have now made copies of them.  I would hold the documents up, gripping them tightly and say, "Here they are.  Inspect them. Here are copies for you."  But, I would never let the originals leave my hands under any circumstances.  let them use force to take them from me, but that's the only way they're going to take them.

 

thats an old myth that has no merit. Surrender of certificates is a formal process and under no circumstances is letting an FAA representative inspect them considered surrender.

[carusoam]

Difficult myth to get past...

(Less experienced) Flight instructors promoted this myth while I was in my early flight training. A couple of flight instructors sitting in a room, crummy weather outside, talking about what they would do if....

Having a document improperly taken is meerly an inconvenience...

Having it on record in Oklahoma of being taken intentionally... That's a bit more serious...

Best regards,

-a-

[AndyFromCB]

 

If you have about an hour to waste,here you go. Probably the best video on the subject of talking to police. Whatever you do, don't. Simply do not talk to them.

 

At 7:15 he really gets to a point: it can be a federal offense to be in possession of a lobster...

[carusoam]

An undersized lobster.... Or one with her eggs showing?

Rules that are known by licensed lobster fishermen....and kids on Cape Cod!

And there is rules for hunting deer as well. Including how close to a house you can be when discharging a fire arm.

It's good to know the rules, as they pertain to you.

AOPA is going to have their hands full with these isolated incidences.

How much contraband is the boarder patrol looking for? What amount does it take to be worth while for them?

Would a trained dog really need to enter the plane to do his job effectively?

My plane is vented at the sides and in panels under the wing. Going on the wing seems less effective.

What is the value of treating good people with disrespect?

What is the cost of treating good people with disrespect?

So many questions....

Best regards,

-a-

[AndyFromCB]

An undersized lobster.... Or one with her eggs showing?

Rules that are known by licensed lobster fishermen....and kids on Cape Cod!

It's good to know the rules, as they pertain to you.

Best regards,

-a-

 

The problem is with the rules being hundreds of thousands of pages long, you do not know them and what pertains to you. Example:

 

It is unlawful for any person--

(1) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any fish or wildlife or plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation of the United States or in violation of any Indian tribal law;

 

(2) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce--

 

(A) any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State or in violation of any foreign law;

 

Basically you have to be aware of the laws of 196 countries in order not to violate the Lacey Act.

[rbridges]

 

The problem is with the rules being hundreds of thousands of pages long, you do not know them and what pertains to you. 

 

 

 

 

If laws were so clear cut, you wouldn't need judges to interpret them.  How many times have you heard that a police officer's interpretation and enforcement of a law being incorrect?  If someone who enforces a law for a living can't be 100% correct 100% of the time, what chance does the average civilian have?

[carusoam]

I would suspect this predicament has kept many people from GA flying outside the country...

-a-

[carusoam]

Makes the FARs sound so much easier....!

-a-

[1964-M20E]

An undersized lobster.... Or one with her eggs showing?

Rules that are known by licensed lobster fishermen....and kids on Cape Cod!

And there is rules for hunting deer as well. Including how close to a house you can be when discharging a fire arm.

It's good to know the rules, as they pertain to you.

AOPA is going to have their hands full with these isolated incidences.

How much contraband is the boarder patrol looking for? What amount does it take to be worth while for them?

Would a trained dog really need to enter the plane to do his job effectively?

My plane is vented at the sides and in panels under the wing. Going on the wing seems less effective.

What is the value of treating good people with disrespect?

What is the cost of treating good people with disrespect?

So many questions....

Best regards,

-a-

 

I'm no expert but I am a deputy as one of the many things I do.

 

In Louisiana a dog can be moved about the outside of a vehicle without a search warrant. Once the dog makes a positive hit ( as identified by the handler??) then a more detailed search can be made without a warrant at that time.  A well trained dog will be able to detect most drug related contraband from the outside of the vehicle.  I’m not sure of how deep they can go as to removing interiors etc. The dog is not allowed inside the vehicle without a warrant unless he makes a hit from the outside.  I’m not sure about going on the vehicle I would suspect that that would not be allowed under the reasons for having the dog there in the first place. The officer can look in through the windows or an open door and what is in plain sight is fair game.  If you have access to the vehicles and have demonstrated yourself to be a threat they can do a “terry search" of the vehicle for any weapons for officer safety this is a brief search of the passenger area for weapons that are easily accessible.

 

I do see one problem with all of this is that even though your rights may have been violated no criminal charges were brought against the OP and therefore no evidence that would need to be suppressed that was illegally obtained by the police so the ACLU does not want to help you because you are not a criminal.  Yes your rights can be violated even if no charges are filed against you and we have the right to refuse searches if for no other reason that it is a right we own and possess that the constitution tells the gov’t that they cannot violate it. Remember the right is yours and protected by the constitution not granted by the constitution.

While it may cost me time I would politely refuse to let them search the vehicle or your person.  Keep in mind they can do a “Terry Search” for weapons on your person for their safety but this consists of a brief search around the waste ankles and pockets form the outside to detect any weapons that may be there and they may detain you for a reasonable amount of time.  Now what is reasonable? My opinion for what it is worth is that anything over 15 minutes is unreasonable.

 

Unfortunately there are some officers who feel it is their job to be belligerent and non-caring.  I try to do my best when dealing with the public to be courteous and nice as I would like to be treated and escalate as necessary based on the demeanor and actions of the person I am dealing with. However, on the flip side I have been in situations while not serious just plain aggravating and after dealing with hundreds of people in a single day you do get tired of the lame stories and reasons why.  I am sure this was not the situation and these officers most likely were not tired and had not dealt with hundreds of people that day.

 

Finally to the OP I do apologize for you treatment in New Orleans based on what I have read here it should have never happened.  I know Brayton personally and he is overall a good person and I’m sure he was concerned for you and did not want to have an obstruction of justice charge trumped up against him by these officers if he tried to intervene.

[carusoam]

John,

Thanks for shedding some additional light...

Best regards,

-a-

[jkhirsch]

I didn't know that Donald Sterling was a CBP officer in his spare time.

[aviatoreb]

After reading this thread  and my own unpleasant recent experiences - and with crappy weather in Mirimachi NB, but not as bad at KBGR - on Sunday I decided not to bother with EAPiS - I flew to KBGR and drove into New Brunswick from there.  So much less stressful.  It is humorous how easy it is to drive in and out of Canada compared to flying.

 

As if a bad guy would file an EAPIS, file an IFR flight plane, phone ahead the CBP to make sure they will there to harangue them, check in their flight plane, and then land short of their destination at a CBP check point - as if they were doing something illegal.  Bad guys don't do that.

[DaV8or]

It is humorous how easy it is to drive in and out of Canada compared to flying.

 

As if a bad guy would file an EAPIS, file an IFR flight plane, phone ahead the CBP to make sure they will there to harangue them, check in their flight plane, and then land short of their destination at a CBP check point - as if they were doing something illegal.  Bad guys don't do that.

 

That's why they call it security theater. All for show and to justify budgets and paychecks. Very little actual security at huge financial and constitutional/civil liberties cost. Al Qaeda is winning by a thousand cuts. They are succeeding in destroying the United States of America.

[AndyFromCB]

That's why they call it security theater. All for show and to justify budgets and paychecks. Very little actual security at huge financial and constitutional/civil liberties cost. Al Qaeda is winning by a thousand cuts. They are succeeding in destroying the United States of America.

 

Pretty much...

[rockydoc]

Yet another horrible example.  i.e.  a young mother, US citizen, with her children taking them home from school, stopped by CBP, threatened with a tazer, tire slashed and her left in the middle of the desert during the day with her children to fend for herself!!!   My case pales in comparison to this and sooooooooooo many others.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/04/29/border-patrol-threatens-mother-slashes-h

[rockydoc]

After speaking extensively with John Yodice, general counsel for the AOPA and the guy that writes all of their authoritative legal articles, I consented to him having the AOPA follow up with the CBP/DHS about my incident.  A few days later a couple of AOPA employees sent me an email saying:

“AOPA had a sit-down with the folks at CBP yesterday and we met with the head of the Air Interdiction effort while Mark had a good meeting with the Commissioner.  I briefly discussed the general circumstances surrounding your stop and the leadership was appalled.  They asked if I could share the information so that they could conduct an internal review and take appropriate disciplinary actions.  I advised them that I would need to check with you (didn’t reveal name or dates in my conversation) and would get back to them.”

After receiving that email, I called AOPA and had a long discussion with them expressing my fears that should I pursue this matter with CBP/DHS as they encouraged me to do for the sake of “the cause” that CBP/DHS would go to the FAA and create all sorts of havoc for me.  I’ve rarely seen a government agency investigation that didn’t try to somehow shift the blame to the complaintant and retaliate totally out of proportion to things.   But, after discussing it with my wife, we arrived at the mutual decision that we have a duty to stand up and be counted and give AOPA the go ahead.  Yeah, just like I did when I told them they couldn’t search my airplane without a search warrant and I wanted an attorney before I would talk to them anymore.  I can’t express the anxiety that I am having over having made that decision, but its done.  So what happens, happens.  Keep your fingers crossed for me and wish me luck.

[KSMooniac]

Excellent.  I read the Flying mag email blast a couple hours ago about AOPA's meeting with the new CBP leadership, and immediately thought of your case.  Good for you agreeing to stand up against this crap!  I hope some folks get fired and their policies get reigned-in, and you get compensated for the damage to your plane.

[carusoam]

Sometimes in life you have to stand up for what you believe in.

The freedom of travel, the freedom of flight, and the freedom to have a business.

Thank you for standing when your number was called.

You've done well,

-a-

[scottfromiowa]

Thank you for STANDING.

[Marauder]

Rockydoc - you are doing the right thing and we're with you. Our forefathers didn't fight for our liberties so that they can be trampled. We are a nation founded on the principle of freedom. It is our job to defend that...

[aviatoreb]

Yet another horrible example.  i.e.  a young mother, US citizen, with her children taking them home from school, stopped by CBP, threatened with a tazer, tire slashed and her left in the middle of the desert during the day with her children to fend for herself!!!   My case pales in comparison to this and sooooooooooo many others.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/04/29/border-patrol-threatens-mother-slashes-h

 

Who are these thugs?!

[Guest]

After reading this thread  and my own unpleasant recent experiences - and with crappy weather in Mirimachi NB, but not as bad at KBGR - on Sunday I decided not to bother with EAPiS - I flew to KBGR and drove into New Brunswick from there.  So much less stressful.  It is humorous how easy it is to drive in and out of Canada compared to flying.

 

As if a bad guy would file an EAPIS, file an IFR flight plane, phone ahead the CBP to make sure they will there to harangue them, check in their flight plane, and then land short of their destination at a CBP check point - as if they were doing something illegal.  Bad guys don't do that.

It's crossing the US border which is a PIA. I can clear Canadian customs by telephone and in most cases will never be met by a customs agent.

Clarence

[yvesg]

Same here. I do not know how much did the eAPIS costs to get established, and how much it costs to maintain... but it is a waste of money. The worst is about asking permission to leave the U.S. I have no clue why they instated this. Can anyone explain to me the security this provides?

Yves