DaveL Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 I never thought this would be me after reading similar stories on here in the past. I purchased a 1962 C just one and a half years ago from Phoenix. I had a local A&P do a pre-buy - I even flew commercial down to help out. I just got a call from the shop doing my annual with bad news. Apparently the stub spar is thoroughly corroded and the airframe is not airworthy. The said the stringers in the tailcone are also severely corroded. I still owe over 20k on the plane, and now it looks like I'll be parting it out in the hopes I can salvage something. My flying days are certainly over. The lesson here for those who are looking to buy is to do whatever it takes to get a *complete* pre-buy inspection from someone who knows/specializes in Mooneys. As for me I'll be paying for this for the next four years and not flying - a very expensive and life-altering lesson. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve65E-NC Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Wow, that's too bad and the photos look pretty bad. Even so, I think I would get a second opinion, maybe from a real expert like the folks at Lasar. What is the position of the A&P who did the pre-buy? If you have flown it this far, I believe a mechanic can get a ferry permit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 I can't imagine the frustration you are feeling...very sorry. These might be stupid ?s, How much would it cost to repair, if possible? What is your recourse against the A&P? I would get a second opinion as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveL Posted April 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 The shop doing the annual said it would likely be $15,000 to repair, and they wouldn't do it. I have no idea of the legal options if any exist. Perhaps it would be a good idea to explore that with an aviation specific attorney? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisk Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 I can't imagine what you are going through. You have my deepest sympathies. I assume this didn't show up on the previous annual? Maybe the factory can give an opinion based on the photos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 $15k mistakes are a challenge... Fortunately they are not real mistakes until the real data has been collected. Try to ascertain the truth of the situation the best you can. The photos are a good way to start. Contacting Lasar is a good way to move forward. You want them to identify how bad the corrosion is and their opinion on the best way to correct it. Professional opinions are important here! There are defined methods of identifing and measuring the extent of the damage. MSCs are the key to getting the right answer to this challenging situation. This way you get two independent opinions. Your current shop plus Lasar. I am neither a lawyer or a mechanic... Good luck, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnicolette Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Dave so sorry for your situation. Just what we don't need these days........A pilot/plane that wants to fly but can't. Good engine times and avionics can get you out of debt but what a pain in the butt!! I hope there is some light at the end of the tunnel for you sir. Sympathies, Brett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Maybe the factory can give an opinion based on the photos? That was tried in another thread (re: ramp inspection), it didn't work out so well...I would go with Lasar 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Sadly the options are very expensive. While anything can be repaired it is a matter of cost. I was recently sent similar pictures which I forwarded to Mooney for their opinion, which was not favourable to repairing it. This just underscores the value of a very thorough PPI, if it has a cover and can be removed do it and look carefully. Hopefully the A&P has a liability policy which may defray some of the pain. Sad news indeed. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveL Posted April 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Thanks. I've send the first three photos to Mike at Lasar. He's always been very helpful. I'm going to send him more when I get them, but he said that if the spar is 'exfoliating' it's pretty bad, and he tentatively agreed that $15,000 might be a ballpark repair estimate (before he saw the photos). He's also going to try and give me some ballpark values for my low time engine and prop, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 I doubt that corrosion happened in 18 months, but I doubt that you have much/any recourse with the mechanic that did the PPI. Getting an attorney involved will likely cost more than it is worth in the end, too. Definitely go through the evaluation with LASAR, and fortunately you aren't terribly far away from them. There is a seller on ebay with a (presumably good) wing from an early E model that might work if you want to swap. LASAR might have a salvage wing as well. At the end of the day, parting it out is probably the easiest way out, unfortunately. Undamaged engine and prop, nose gear, control surfaces, etc. all have value in addition to some avionics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 So sorry you have to face this horrible news Dave. I sense your pain reading about it. Hopefully you can your losses as much as you can from engine, avionics, prop and whatever else and move on. You have my sympathies my friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve65E-NC Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 I think there are a number of C's of that vintage sitting around with run-out engines, dated electronics, thread bare interiors, etc. But, with solid airframes/wings. Those will probably also wind up scrapped but with little engine/electronics value. Maybe you could arrange an exchange and move all your good stuff right over. Anyone on list know of a C model candidate at a supper cheap price 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveL Posted April 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 It'll be whatever I can get from the <400 SMOH engine and prop. The avionics are vintage '62. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 So sorry to hear of your problem. Do at least call LASAR A wing swap may not be out of the equation. It's worth a look anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Dave Don't give up so quickly I have seen it much worse and reasonably repaired. The pictures appears to show isolated spots probably where humidity accumulated. Corrosion assesment varies widely among mechanics. How does the turbular structure looks? The steel tube structure is one of the first to get hit by corrosion in a corrosive environment. If the tubing looks good is likely that the plane is worth repairing it. Can you post a picture or drawing that maps the location of these corrosion spots. BTW you do not need to necessarily buy parts from Mooney for this. Most of these are just 6061-T6 or 2024-T3 aluminum material that you can buy at a very low cost. Suggest that you check with a shop or mechanic that specializes on sheet metal work. There is lot of planes with worse accidental damage that get repaired every day. José 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 José has a good point... the spar consists of simple pieces of aluminum that you can source easily enough. Finding a good mechanic to take on such a task will be the difficult part. If the corroded parts can be swapped, then it is a very doable repair. It becomes less-doable if you need to add splices or make other changes to the structure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N33GG Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Ouch! Good luck, I wish you well! When you have lemons, make lemonade. Sometimes life gets tough, you just have to be tougher. The most valuable mistakes make for the best education. If you haven't found a solution, you probably haven't looked at the problem from the right angle. Don't give up, the answer is probably out there. Again, good luck. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201er Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Yikes. That is a hefty burden to bear, feel awful for you. Excuse me if this was covered elsewhere but I was wondering if you had a prebuy or not and if you did why you think they missed it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triple8s Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 You being in the northwest makes it hard to be of any help personally but, if your tubes are good.........worst case scenario is ya need a wing and it isn't that big of a deal to,swap that out. Now ya gotta find one. Or, part the whole thing out and start over but do NOT think your flying days are over. I know right now today where u can get a 1965 C model for mid twenties has a low time engine and prop so if yo can sell your engine for low to mid teens and a couple grand for your prop. So that leave s your control surfaces and interior and flight instruments. If you part your plane out you can have enough to buy another bird and fly on. Do NOT give up! All airplanes are worth more as parts than as a flying aircraft. If this wasn't the case Wentworth, Texas Air Salvage and all the others wouldn't be in business today. My point? Do NOT give up, set back? Yes, but beaten? HELL NO! Talk to the salvage yards and folks in the know you can come out of this and fly on. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveL Posted April 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Yikes. That is a hefty burden to bear, feel awful for you. Excuse me if this was covered elsewhere but I was wondering if you had a prebuy or not and if you did why you think they missed it? Yep, I had a pre-buy. I emailed the guy today, and he called me this evening and expressed his extreme apologies. He said he couldn't believe he missed it. He didn't really make me feel better, but I was surprised he called. The previous owner has not called back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Don't give up on your bird sections can be removed and replaced it depends on the pieces that are affected. We bought what was supposed to be a no gripes 64D and when it went in for annual (at LASAR) there was 16k worth of needed repairs. It was painful but now we have a solid bird. Next month is time for its annual and I will be very nervous. In fact I would rather get a cat scan an MRI and a colonoscopy at the same time than the annual. I know that if it can be fixed LASAR will know it. If it indeed comes to parting it out do what you can to recover your loss like triple8s said. Don't give up on your dream to fly. Any thing that can be made can be fixed. Hang in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmigOne Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 I'd like to join the friends in the forum in saying don't give up so quickly. The salvage yards have hundreds of wings and for sure they'll have some Mooney. And there may be other wings out there for less money, you just have to get busy. By looking at the pictures I would not go for a repair, particularly since worse areas may show up only after some expensive labor. As to going against the mechanic who did the PPI perhaps AOPA can provide some legal information in this regard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmigOne Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Here are two pictures of neglected Mooneys parked at Air Harbor fly-in community near Greensboro, NC which I saw yesterday. A resident told me that both had very low time engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Dave Don't give up so quickly I have seen it much worse and reasonably repaired. The pictures appears to show isolated spots probably where humidity accumulated. Corrosion assesment varies widely among mechanics. How does the turbular structure looks? The steel tube structure is one of the first to get hit by corrosion in a corrosive environment. If the tubing looks good is likely that the plane is worth repairing it. Can you post a picture or drawing that maps the location of these corrosion spots. BTW you do not need to necessarily buy parts from Mooney for this. Most of these are just 6061-T6 or 2024-T3 aluminum material that you can buy at a very low cost. Suggest that you check with a shop or mechanic that specializes on sheet metal work. There is lot of planes with worse accidental damage that get repaired every day. José That looks like intergranular corrosion. 6061 T-6 is succeptible to this if not heat-treated properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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