Jump to content


Photo

M20F 201 Conversion Value

M20F Conversion

  • Please log in to reply
40 replies to this topic

#1 MReitz

MReitz

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11 posts

Posted 20 March 2014 - 02:06 PM

I am looking at an M20F with a 201 Conversion and was wondering what it costs to do this conversion? I just want to make sure that it is worth buying one with the conversion and not having it done my self after purchasing an F.



#2 orionflt

orionflt

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 610 posts
  • LocationQuakertown, PA
  • Reg #:N78959
  • Model:M20C

Posted 20 March 2014 - 02:13 PM

you can put almost as much into the plane doing the conversion as you will pay for the plane, buy one that has already been converted and save the expense.



#3 bluehighwayflyer

bluehighwayflyer

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 3,455 posts
  • LocationUSA
  • Model:'78 M20J

Posted 20 March 2014 - 02:29 PM

Be careful and make sure that you know what you are buying. Very few modified F models have the true J cowling. Most have one of several cowl modifications that have been available over the years that vary greatly in quality, aesthetics, and performance, none of them in my opinion being fully on par with a true OEM "201" cowing conversion but for the most part all of them being in improvement over stock.

Agreed, also, that all mods are cheaper to purchase already installed. Not only that, many are no longer available so purchasing them already installed is your only real option if you want them.
Jim R.

#4 MReitz

MReitz

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11 posts

Posted 20 March 2014 - 03:13 PM

any idea what they value of that conversion is though?



#5 larryb

larryb

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 284 posts
  • LocationNorthern CA
  • Model:M20J

Posted 20 March 2014 - 03:14 PM

Or better yet, buy a J model that came that way from the factory. Just remember that purchase price is NOT the major cost of an airplane. Maintaining it and operating it are. 4 or 5 years of operating costs will likely equal the purchase price. So the real goal is to find the best-maintained plane that will cost you the least to maintain it going forward. In the big scheme of things, the purchase price is simply not that important. A few thousand one way or another is not going to make a difference.


  • bluehighwayflyer likes this

#6 mike_elliott

mike_elliott

    Lives Here

  • Members
  • 490 posts
  • LocationTarpon Springs, Fl.,
  • Reg #:N9427v
  • Model:m20F

Posted 20 March 2014 - 03:16 PM

I am looking at an M20F with a 201 Conversion and was wondering what it costs to do this conversion? I just want to make sure that it is worth buying one with the conversion and not having it done my self after purchasing an F.

 

While it is across the state from Midland, might I suggest you have Don Maxwell do a prebuy on it if you come to terms with the owner. Don will make sure that it is sound. I have helped a few people purchase Mooney's and can tell you, it is a fairly tedious process to really drill down to what the plane is and isn't, and its true value. While this isn't the question you asked, my answer is to make sure you have a quality, Mooney specific prebuy converted to an annual, and to get Mooney specific training. Both will pay huge dividends in the long run. You have already made one wise decision on deciding on a Mooney, now continue this winning streak with a couple more wise decisions! Welcome!


  • bluehighwayflyer and gsxrpilot like this

#7 KSMooniac

KSMooniac

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 3,542 posts
  • LocationWichita, KS
  • Reg #:N11MH
  • Model:M20J

Posted 20 March 2014 - 04:21 PM

I'm not sure which F is on your radar, but a "201 Conversion" isn't a completely defined package as far as I know.  The most effective and noticeable changes would be the windscreen (201 has more slope) and the cowl, which is a 2-pc fiberglass design with inlets on each side of the spinner vs. the guppy-mount inlet on the pre-J planes.  Some planes have converted completely to a 201 cowl, and that requires oil cooler relocation, engine mount swap or mod to accommodate the cowl flap mechanism, new induction system, etc.  Some may consider swapping the IO-360-A3B6(D) engine and better prop in lieu of the -A1A as part of such a conversion as well.

 

Not quite as far down the road as what I wrote above, there are cowl mods that build on the stock F cowl to mimic a 201 configuration and use a 201 spinner, but might keep the oil cooler and induction system as-is.  Pair that mod with a 201 windscreen and you get the bulk of the speed (and aesthetic) improvements

 

There are other aero add-ons with the J and later models that can be added to the F as well.

Value is hard to pin down, as you've probably realized by now.  There is an upper-bound on the F value, and it will always be the current market value of an early J model, and those have been going down.  The bigger wildcard is the rest of the equation...installed equipment, good maintenance and flying history, etc.  Personally, if two identical F's were under my consideration and one had the full J conversion (engine, cowl, prop, windscreen, etc) I would probably value it $7-10k higher, but that is just me.  If it is a modified cowl, perhaps half that.  Others might not value it that highly.


Scott
Wichita, KS (though I'm a displaced Texan!)

#8 carusoam

carusoam

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 4,795 posts
  • LocationNJ
  • Model:Ovation 1

Posted 20 March 2014 - 04:22 PM

Why would you buy an F when you want a J....?

Follow me for a moment...

It's not the value 'they' put on it as much as the value the buyer puts on it...

Competition drives the price.

Two near identical planes, the faster one will sell first...

Two near identical buyers the one with cash in his pocket will get first choice....

The problem with trying to adjust for price on the mods, the mod gets lost amongst A/F hours and everything else the plane has or doesn't have...

Select
1 ) Airframe B, C, D, E, F, J, K, .... R, S, TN
2 ) Engine N/A, TC or TN
3 ) Instruments (radios and nav equipment)
4 ) Paint
5 ) Interior
6 ) Age and hours
7 ) Mods


Who do you want to be...?

A ) You could spend more turning an F into a J than buying a J....
This would not be well thought out or false economics. Cowling costs $10k? Belly panel $4k?

-or-

B ) You could buy an F today and slowly upgrade over time as new technology evolves and your income improves, your house gets paid off, and your kids graduate from college. One of my favorite Mooney owners is this guy.

-or-

C ) you could buy an F today and trade it in or sell it to buy the plane you want later on.

-or-

D ) you found an F that has mods and you want to pay the F price and receive J performance.

-or-

E ) you found a plane with an immaculate panel. Buy the radios and the E gets thrown in for free....


There are only a handful of planes that get upgraded to this level. They get sold infrequently. Demand easily outweighs supply.

Now what are you thinking...?

Have you defined your mission...?

Best regards,

-a-

#9 DonMuncy

DonMuncy

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 963 posts
  • LocationDallas
  • Reg #:231AT
  • Model:M20K (1982 231)

Posted 20 March 2014 - 04:26 PM

I think what everyone is trying to say is, there are so many variations, no one can say what the different configurations are worth.
  • carusoam likes this

Don Muncy


#10 triple8s

triple8s

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 509 posts

Posted 20 March 2014 - 04:42 PM

I had a short body with the OEM 201 cowl mod and I liked the way it looked, however, if I were going to go through the trouble and expense of getting a cowl mod I personally would opt for the Lowpresti. Just my preference



#11 KSMooniac

KSMooniac

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 3,542 posts
  • LocationWichita, KS
  • Reg #:N11MH
  • Model:M20J

Posted 20 March 2014 - 04:42 PM

I'll add one more thought on a highly modified F vs. a J... there is a minority of folks (including myself) that value efficiency, simplicity, and higher useful loads over other Mooney features/luxuries.  The holy grail airplane would be a lightweight J model that has the Johnson bar gear and hydraulic flaps, but of course that plane doesn't exist.  It would likely have a useful load approaching 1100 lbs!  

 

The next best thing would be a highly modified F with the manual gear and flaps, but has a modern panel & autopilot, all of the aerodynamic improvements, and hopefully the later IO-360 and prop (without ADs).  As mentioned above, few planes get modified to this level, and far fewer are for sale while the owner/upgrader is still alive.  :)  


  • scottfromiowa likes this
Scott
Wichita, KS (though I'm a displaced Texan!)

#12 rbridges

rbridges

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 1,779 posts
  • LocationPerry, GA
  • Reg #:6099Q
  • Model:65 M20C

Posted 20 March 2014 - 05:03 PM

any idea what they value of that conversion is though?

 

 

If you look at mooney mart's old price list, the 201 cowl and windshield mod is very expensive.  If the parts were available, you're looking at spending at least $20k to have it installed.  there were also options for the panel and yokes, etc.

 

If I came across an F model with the factory 201 cowl and windshield, I'd be willing to pay more for it.  How much?  I dunno b/c you have to factor in the whole plane.  



#13 scottfromiowa

scottfromiowa

    ScottfromIowa

  • Members
  • 2,706 posts
  • LocationCedar Rapids, IA
  • Reg #:3424X
  • Model:M20E

Posted 20 March 2014 - 05:24 PM

Find a J that is flying and buy it...then update the panel, interior, paint as money permits and make it yours. A great (highly updated paint, interior, panel and FLYING) Mid-time engine F trumps a tired J, but you WANT a J. Buy one.
  • bluehighwayflyer likes this

1966 M20E
"Got a stick of Beeman's?"


#14 Hank

Hank

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 2,850 posts
  • Locationmoving from Huntington, WV to Auburn, AL
  • Model:1970 M20-C

Posted 20 March 2014 - 05:34 PM

Sounds to me like he found an F he likes, and is curious what it's worth. Jimmy Garrison has an evaluation tool in the Mooney Flyer.


--Hank
1970 M20-C

#15 Lood

Lood

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 572 posts

Posted 20 March 2014 - 05:51 PM

No matter how much it is converted, an F model is just that - an F model and it will stay an F model. And come the day that you might want to sell it, you will get an F price for it.

I would buy a J.



#16 KSMooniac

KSMooniac

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 3,542 posts
  • LocationWichita, KS
  • Reg #:N11MH
  • Model:M20J

Posted 20 March 2014 - 05:52 PM

If it is the grey '67 listed by AAA, that is a screamin' deal IMO.  You couldn't take a $20k F and duplicate what is in that one for anywhere near the asking price.  I see at first glance $17k+ worth of autopilot & GPSS, $8k worth of tank re-sealing last year, $5k worth of 201 cowl (guess!), $3500 engine monitor, $4k xponder, $8k GPS, $5k exhaust, $8-10k of interior, etc. etc. etc.  

 

The only thing lacking IMO is a 2-blade (or MT) prop and a WAAS upgrade.  Maybe a paint job or touchup as Jimmy indicates in the ad.


Scott
Wichita, KS (though I'm a displaced Texan!)

#17 KSMooniac

KSMooniac

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 3,542 posts
  • LocationWichita, KS
  • Reg #:N11MH
  • Model:M20J

Posted 20 March 2014 - 05:53 PM

No matter how much it is converted, an F model is just that - an F model and it will stay an F model. And come the day that you might want to sell it, you will get an F price for it.

I would buy a J.

This is also true, but you have to compare features between a modded F and J model.  If you have identical features between the two, the J will always be worth more.  Looking at the '67 modded F, it is very, very easy to see the value in it compared to an un-upgraded early J that it competes with in the market right now.


Scott
Wichita, KS (though I'm a displaced Texan!)

#18 Marauder

Marauder

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 4,080 posts
  • LocationDelaware
  • Model:M20F

Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:34 PM

No matter how much it is converted, an F model is just that - an F model and it will stay an F model. And come the day that you might want to sell it, you will get an F price for it.

I would buy a J.

 

A lot depends on what was done to it and what year F it is. My 1975 F is better equipped (avionics) than many early model Js and with the mods I do have (windshield, cowl enclosure, gap seals), I'm only a few knots slower than an early J -- but definitely faster than Mike's (201er).

 

In addition, my AD list is not long and I got a decent useful load. As I mentioned previously, for the flying I am doing today, the F fits the mission and a J doesn't buy me much (other than potentially someone else's headaches). After retirement, I may want to fly further west and I may look at a turbo version for the capability.



#19 201er

201er

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 1,723 posts
  • LocationNYC
  • Model:M20J

Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:39 PM

I'm only a few knots slower than an early J -- but definitely faster than Mike's (201er).

Only in your dreams.


  • TTaylor likes this

#20 orionflt

orionflt

    Won't Leave!

  • Members
  • 610 posts
  • LocationQuakertown, PA
  • Reg #:N78959
  • Model:M20C

Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:45 PM

I'm only a few knots slower than an early J -- but definitely faster than Mike's (201er).

 

 

Only in your dreams.

It hasn't been proven he isn't..... stir...stir...stir   :D






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users