New to the forum, new to flying, with questions.

[Flynlow]

Hi all!

 

Brand new to the forum and the world of general aviation.  Getting my PPL has been a dream since I was 15, but time and money limitations have always gotten in the way.  I'm now 29, with a decent engineering job, and looking to move ahead. 

 

I recently was fortunate enough to fly the right-seat for almost 8 hours with a friend in his Piper Arrow, and it was excellent.  We did 3 takeoffs and landings at 3 airports across 2 states, including an IFR approach, so quite a full day.  However, I'm still completely green, and have not begun my training yet.  So I apologize in advance if my questions seem elementary and lacking in the proper technical jargon.  I'll get up to speed, I promise! 

 

Firstly, the PPL instruction itself.  I'm in Richmond, VA, and the two FBO options in my area seem to be Hanover County Airport (KOFP) and New Kent Airport (W96).  Hanover is closest, and would probably be my home airfield once I got my certificate, hopefully renting a hangar.  They offer a "one size fits all" price for a PPL, but it seems to be a bit above what I've seen elsewhere for average costs ($8200 in a Tecnam or $9950 in a C172):

 

http://www.flyhova.com/Flight%20Packages%20OFP.htm

 

Any thoughts?  Any concerns with using a Tecnam vs. a Cessna?  I am not sure about the relative size of the fleets and their availability, but that will be one of my questions when I go to visit (hopefully this week or next, depending on work). 

 

New Kent seems to be slightly less expensive ($129/hr wet vs $143 for a C172, with a C152 as an alternative option at $99 wet), though the fleet is only three aircraft:

 

http://www.newkentaviation.com/rates.html

 

My average cost estimates came from:

 

http://www.pilotcareer.info/Private_Pilot_Costs.html

 

Do all of the above seem reasonable?  Any recommendations with using a FBO school like above vs. trying to find a CFI on my own?  I DO NOT want to get rushed/rubber stamped through, I'm genuinely looking to learn as much of the ins and outs as possible, which is why I wonder if finding someone with a huge passion and enthusiasm for flying, that just happens to have a CFI, could be a better route than a school.  On the other hand, the training at a school is less subject to the idiosyncracies of any one person........so I don't know.

 

 

The main reason I'm asking these questions here, is I think a Mooney M20F or J would fit my long term goals very well.  The performance and efficiency of the aircraft vs. it's competitors in class is a strong draw, as is the reasonable running costs and long-running design.  Reading about the background and the design of the aircraft, alot of it spoke to me as an engineer.  My budget is ~$60K, and the majority of use would be trips of 200-300nm, with perhaps 4 trips/year of 600-1200nm, visiting friends in the midwest.  Would an M20 be at all feasible as a first aircraft?  Could I legally even fly one without a Complex rating?  I would like to progress on from a PPL to an Instrument and Complex endorsement, so would be interested in hearing others' thoughts on when purchasing the plane and switching over to it as the primary trainer would be advisable.  I doubt anyone would recommend starting from hour zero in one, but what about after the first 20-30 hours in something like a Cessna?

 

Lastly, anyone local to the area?  Any chance I could buy you lunch one weekend in exchange for talking Mooneys in person, checking the fit, maybe even go up for an hour or so? 

 

I know that's alot for a first post, but sincere thanks for any help or guidance you can offer a newbie.

 

Cliff

[N201MKTurbo]

Have you considered buying your Mooney now and doing your training in your own plane?

 

Learning to operate the complex parts of a Mooney are not that big of a deal (sorry all you macho pilots) especially if you don't know any better from square one. It will probably take a few more hours to solo and your insurance will be expensive for a while, but in the long run it will probably be cheaper. In the end you will have a Mooney!

 

I have no idea if you will be able to get insurance to solo in a Mooney or not, I've never thought about that. Does anybody have an answer?

[carusoam]

A challenging thing in selecting a training organization will be the availability of machines and instructors.

Your challenge is to come up with the cash, free time, plane, instructor and weather.

I did my instrument training in a school with multiple identical planes and instructors. It worked out well...

What type of engineering background do you have?

Good luck,

-a-

[BigTex]

I'd personally stay away from the Tecnam as it's geared for the LSA license.  If your end goal is to own a Mooney, you'll need a PPL.  HOVA looks like they're geared more toward the Sport Pilot so I'd lean towards New Kent Aviation.  They offer the Cessna 152 at a reasonable rate.  Go out there and take their discovery flight and see how you like them.

[Flynlow]

Thanks for the quick responses!  In answer to your questions:

 

"Have you considered buying your Mooney now and doing your training in your own plane?"

 

Very much so.  My concern is trying to learn the ins and outs of buying an aircraft before/during learning to fly one .  Also, as you suggested, whether I could solo it.  I would love to save the cost of an aircraft rental if possible, but really don't want to buy a C152/172, only to sell it a year later and upgrade.  The insurance question is a good one that I will follow up on. 

 

"What type of engineering background do you have?"

 

Mechancial.  I worked as an test engineer in automotive R&D my first few years out of school.  In hindsight, I think I would have been just as happy keeping cars as a hobby and pursuing Aerospace, but was sold on the generalist aspect of ME.  The job flexibility is definitely nice. 

 

BigTex, that was my impression of the Tecnam's as well.  I believe Hanover's FBO is also a Tecnam dealer, which may drive what they have on hand.  I am 100% set on PPL, not Light Sport.

[N601RX]

We purchased a 150 and both got our license in it. A decent one can be had for around $15000. My brother and I both got our license in it and sold it for what we had in it. We used a free lance instructor who charged $25hr. The 150 is cheap to operate and easy to get insurance on. I think my license cost me around $1800 a few years ago.

[Bob_Belville]

I suspect many of us here started on a 152 (or as in my case in the '60s a 150) It is a fun plane that will teach you a good bit about flying the airplane. At your age and with your technical bent and if you can work it out to fly a couple of time s a week you should be able to get the PPL in close to the minimum which was 40 hours when we did it. Those hours are not all dual, if fact half of them might be solo if things go smoothly. Not sure about simulators for basic instruction but it's possible some of the 40 hours do not include an airplane.

 

I was fortunate to get in a small flying club right after the PPL and started flying their Mooney with only 50 hours total so as mentioned above learning to handle a little more plane might not be as big a deal as the insurance. I suspect you'll have to build some time with an instructor or a qualified pilot before the insurance company would be satisfied.  

 

But longer cross countries w/o an instrument rating is an exercise in discipline. There's a great deal to learn after you can fly the plane.

[jetdriven]

We purchased a 150 and both got our license in it. A decent one can be had for around $15000. My brother and I both got our license in it and sold it for what we had in it. We used a free lance instructor who charged $25hr. The 150 is cheap to operate and easy to get insurance on. I think my license cost me around $1800 a few years ago.

Second on the 150. You can get your PPL and then sell it for even money. Also, go fly a Bonanza and some other stuff to be sure a Mooney is what you want. 

[Jamie]

As for learning in a mooney... based on my experience I don't see why you couldn't. I had 180ish hours when I bought it but most of -that- was 20 years ago. I'd only been flying, I dunno, maybe a dozen hours in 172 / arrows when I bought my mooney. And I bought it without flying it. First landing with the instructor was fairly easy, since I'd been reading here about the importance of nailing the landing speed.

 

I dunno... my mooney just "fits". They aren't hard to fly, and they aren't hard to land if you pay attention.

 

On the "maybe not" side, though, sure... you can afford to buy it. Can you afford to keep it? Have you done the math? $60k is what it costs you to enter a club that has fairly heafty membership dues.    Hangar / tie down, insurance, MAINTENANCE, fuel, property tax, sales tax.....

[Seth]

Have you considered buying your Mooney now and doing your training in your own plane?

 

Learning to operate the complex parts of a Mooney are not that big of a deal (sorry all you macho pilots) especially if you don't know any better from square one. It will probably take a few more hours to solo and your insurance will be expensive for a while, but in the long run it will probably be cheaper. In the end you will have a Mooney!

 

I have no idea if you will be able to get insurance to solo in a Mooney or not, I've never thought about that. Does anybody have an answer?

I do know a pilot who learned on a twin he purchased.  He then purchased a more powerful twin (Piper Aztec then Aerostar).  He has never flown a single engine land airplane.  His license is a multi-engine land license.  He is not signed off nor licensed for single engine land.  Did all his ratings in the piper twin.

 

I however would not suggest that.  I'd say learn to fly in a Cessna 172 for the first 10-15 hours, make sure you do love it (which you do), solo, and then purchase your Mooney once you've picked up the basics.  Fly the Mooney with the instructor for maybe some extra time and then you'll be right at home.  Insurance will be expensive the first year but will come down once you hit 100 hours in type, and get the IFR rating.

 

The 60k budget is good for a 50k F model with 10K for maintenance during that first year for things that were unexpected or you want changed.

 

Congrats on finally "taking off."

 

-Seth

[Jamie]

Good point about the first 10 hours or so... learn to land in someone else's airplane.

[Hank]

My suggestion: buy the Mooney whenever you find one with a good maintenance record, whether you're still training or not. I bought mine 5 weeks after my PPL checkride. It's all about procedures, being on speed and making the plane do what you want it to. If you are just along for the ride, going where the plane wants to go, it will be an interesting ride.

Us ME's have the right mentality beat into us in school, and it carries over well into flying. Fly the plane like you work, with attention to detail, the Mooney will be great. Fly it carelessly, it will bite you hard.

Hope to keep seeing you around.

P.S.--Learn how to make consistent, smooth landings on non-retractable gear, NOT with a Mooney that you own.

[BigTex]

I'd like to also add, don't be too quick to purchase an aircraft.  The last thing you'd want to deal with is a broken airplane or all the maintenance that comes from airplane ownership.  You need to really focus on your license.  And as mentioned above, make sure flying is something you want to do.  Flying, especially aircraft ownership is not for the faint of heart. 

 

Also, you really don't know what aspect of flying really scratches that itch.  When I got my license, all I wanted to do was fly upside down.  The thought of going straight and level for hours on end was the last thing I'd want to do (obviously my mission has changed!).  Make sure your mission matches the plane you'll end up with.

[Flynlow]

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

 

What I'm hearing from most of you is that a C150/152 really might be worth a look to start (renting or owning).  Sounds similar to the motorcycle world: start off on a ninja 250/500, make all your mistakes on that, and sell it to the next person starting out a year later for the same money.  I'd just prefer to avoid the headaches of buying and selling multiple times to wind up with the right long-term aircraft, but maybe aircraft buyers are more reputable than the CL folks that come to look at Ninja 500s (voice of experience).

 

As mentioned, I'm going to be visiting Hanover and New Kent in person in the next 2 weeks to speak with both about flight school, will report back with my findings. 

 

Also, a few folks cautioned about maintenance, hanger, etc.... just to clarify, $60K is my purchase budget.  Maintenance, storage, and overhaul savings I'm estimating at ~$5-6K/year on top of that.  Might still be optimistic, but 10% seemed to be a common rule of thumb.  Coming from a racing background, aircraft ownership is only a minor heart attack.  I hear some people actually earn income from their hobbies, I wonder what that's like.....

[chrisk]

I think the thing that will make the most difference in you path to a pilots license is having the same make of plane available on a regular basis.   If the Cessna 150 is reasonably available, I would go that way.  The price is right and it will do everything you need it to do.   Another factor is the availability of the instructor.  You want to go when the weather is good and when you have time.  Nothing is more frustrating than sitting on the ground after 3 weeks of weather because some one else has the plane or instructor.

 

Also, I probably would not buy a Cessna 150/152.   Solo, then think about a plane.  Get your license, then go buy one.

[Z W]

Budget $10k per year for ownership. That will cover hangar, insurance, annual inspection, and some random maintenance. Some years will be $6k, some will be $15k. Gas and oil changes not included. Engine reserve not included.

If hangars are expensive where you are, adjust upwards.

Welcome to the GA lifestyle. It will be the best $10k you spend next year, second possibly to the $10k you spend on the PPL.

[Jamie]

Yeah... but what about the $4k-$10k for the instrument rating, the $6k for the spiffy engine monitor, the $12k for the paint job, the $9k 'cause the tanks need resealed, the .....

 

Wait. Nevermind. We tell him -after- he buys the plane. I always forget.

[manu damaschin]

Do you PPL in the aircraft the school is offering to you...you will be more relaxed when you will exercise the landings. After that if you want an IR...do it in your own Mooney. I did so and it was ok...

 

Good luck!

[mike_elliott]

We purchased a 150 and both got our license in it. A decent one can be had for around $15000. My brother and I both got our license in it and sold it for what we had in it. We used a free lance instructor who charged $25hr. The 150 is cheap to operate and easy to get insurance on. I think my license cost me around $1800 a few years ago.

 

 

Exactly how I did it. Built 100 hrs in the 150, sold it for more than I paid for it and purchased an F model Mooney which I still own. One of my sons also got his ticket in the c150 and is IR in my mooney. I don't think I could have done it any more economical, and was very fortunate to find a great old timer stick and rudder free lance instructor who was passionate about flying and propagating the species, vs a time builder at a school. He was also a former mooney owner who was able to school me properly once I purchased the F. Don't be bashful about interviewing your potential instructors for a good fit for yourself. This is about you and your schedule, not their career paths.

[Danb]

I did exactly as Mike took a discovery flight loved it. Being a cpa did some math bought a Cherokee got my private sold it for a 500 profit had a old local instructor which I know is now hard to find bought a J model and the got the Ifr cert... Many things to consider esp. In this economy

[Danb]

I did exactly as Mike took a discovery flight loved it. Being a cpa did some math bought a Cherokee got my private sold it for a 500 profit had a old local instructor which I know is now hard to find bought a J model and the got the Ifr cert... Many things to consider esp. In this economy

[robert7467]

I trained in mine from start to finish. As my instructor told me , any airplane is a good airplane to fly in. I'm in a partnership and at first I technically "borrowed " the airplane and got renters insurance. Pros: you learn in the plane that you are going to own. Cons: in Memphis it's hard to find an instructor with Mooney time. Now that I am working on instrument , I am pilot in command and it really doesn't matter who I use as an instructor. In a mooney, you will need a good instructor because the prop is low to the ground, and the gear is not as forgiving if you plant the plane down on the runway.

[Bob_Belville]

I did my PPL with a multi instructor, multi plane operation @ BNA in 1969. (Checked my first log book - when I took the Private Check Ride I had 40.9 hours, 19.7 dual, 21.2 solo.) But like Mike I found an independent (older) CFII for my IR. We started in his 172 but I bought a Mooney 18 hours into the instrument work and finished in the Mooney.

[robert7467]

Not saying the gear is weak, because I have had my fair share of interesting landings but it's not as forgiving as a trainer.

[N601RX]

I trained in mine from start to finish. As my instructor told me , any airplane is a good airplane to fly in. I'm in a partnership and at first I technically "borrowed " the airplane and got renters insurance. Pros: you learn in the plane that you are going to own. Cons: in Memphis it's hard to find an instructor with Mooney time. Now that I am working on instrument , I am pilot in command and it really doesn't matter who I use as an instructor. In a mooney, you will need a good instructor because the prop is low to the ground, and the gear is not as forgiving if you plant the plane down on the runway.

You might want to read your renters policy closely.  Every one that I have saw clearly says that it does not cover any plane that is part owned by you, a company you own, or family member.